History of the Holton 345

[Bandmaster]

On Rick Denney's page, if you scroll down to the section about his Holton 345, you'll see a couple paragraphs on the history of the 345.

http://www.rickdenney.com/tuba_collection.htm


There is one old posting in the old TuneNet discussing history.

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jun2003 ... 37759.html

[Donn]

My contention is that the Holton was an attempt to get all of the brass principals (in the closest major orchestra to the Holton factory) to play (or, at least own) Holton instruments. The Holton 345 is the fifty-years-ago "Chinese" copy of the CSO York.

The first sentence fits with Rick Denney's story, the second sentence doesn't really.

Image courtesy of a bandmaster post from 8 years ago:


The Nirschl looks pretty close to me, the Holton not so much.

Not that any of these York or whatever lineage tubas was a cheap facsimile with a made-up moniker stamped on it.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I completely agree with Joe's post here. From what I have observed, Holton 345 BBb tubas are at the top of my list for being the most "crap-tastic" in build quality to leave any factory. But, if properly constructed are one of the best and funnest designs to be found in a 6/4 tuba.

And just a side note; The pics Dave posted of the six CC 345s, Only one of the six is an original CC. the others are cut and/or "franken-horns".


D.C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Bandmaster]

And just a side note; The pics Dave posted of the six CC 345s, Only one of the six is an original CC. the others are cut and/or "franken-horns".

I thought maybe 3 were original CC's, but I was SURE that 2 were original CC's. The silver one in the center of each row. I know the bottom one Dan restored in his shop along with mine. The one in the top row I read about in somebody's web posting that he had once owned it and that it has since been disassembled for somebody else's pet project. Oh well... what do I know?

Taking a second look at the six BBb's in the image I posted, one is definitely a cut down model. The one on the lower right doesn't look right.

I am no expert, I only have first hand experience with just one Holton, the one I own. Dan has intimate knowledge of the many Holton's that have gone through his shop over the years. He literally know them inside and out.

[Alex Kidston]

Other Canadian tuba players will be able to add to this, but when I was in the Ceremonial Guard Band, Ottawa, one of the tuba players from the Central Band of the Canadian Forces, Ted Cosstick, had an iconic Holton - my memory says that it was a 345 factory CC 6/4 but I have no way of knowing if that was in fact the case, other than that it WAS a Holton. Needless to say, that instrument inspired my interest in American large tuba design which I've never lost. If anyone has any idea what Ted is up to these days, I'd be interested to know!

[Alex C]

In Bandmaster's great historical sketch of the Holton tuba, it says that Arnold Jacobs ordered a 5 valved version of the Holton. I have seen, over the years, several Holtons with a fifth valve that look as if tehy were done by the factory. I assume, then, that the fifth valve was a factory option?

The Holton had a supply of top-opening fifth valves that they offered with the 345. When they ran out, they didn't re-order. They were gone by 1970 so it is safe to assume that they ran out in the 60's but that is about as close to a specific date you can get unless Holton will let some erstwhile researcher go through the records.

I don't see the Holton 345 as a "Chinese copy" of the York either. It was a "copy" of the York but there was no other CC, 6/4, piston valve horn for sale of that size being made anywhere, so it was not a price point kind of horn. Jake's students wanted that style tuba, as did others.

It was very adventurous for Holton to even offer a CC tuba, very few were being offered for sale by American manufacturers.

Holton sold quite a few 345 BBb's to school and university bands, the only alternative in that size was the Conn 24-J.

[Alex C]

"Chinese copy" refers to the fact that many Chinese tubas today, in reality, are assembled with more care than many ever-revered Holton 345 tubas were assembled during their era.

I absolutely agree with that.

[Rick Denney]

I completely agree with Joe's post here. From what I have observed, Holton 345 BBb tubas are at the top of my list for being the most "crap-tastic" in build quality to leave any factory. But, if properly constructed are one of the best and funnest designs to be found in a 6/4 tuba.

And just a side note; The pics Dave posted of the six CC 345s, Only one of the six is an original CC. the others are cut and/or "franken-horns".

You confirmed what I suspected--I thought I recalled the history of more than three of those horns and knew they had been cut.

Rick "who doesn't always recall correctly" Denney

[sveinhenry]

Here is a picture of mine Holon 105-4 (The predecessor)

[BoilerGoalie]

Hi All!

Kind of bringing this one back out of the woodwork ... Great information already!

Any history of modifications to these Holton 345s that have been done successfully (other than 5th valve adders of course)?
Kickers, extra water valve spots, spring adjustments, etc. etc.

Never really had intonation problems with mine until getting way down in the pedals. I've been playing on a BBb version of the 345 for a number of years and always wanted to know.

Thanks!
Kevin

[Paul Scott]

A story that I'd heard years back (from very credible sources) was that Jacobs really wanted Holton to build him a bell-front CC tuba. He wanted this for the concerts at Ravinia and was disappointed when they built it with an upright bell. It would've been interesting if Jacobs had played on a bell-front with the Chicago Symphony at some point! Certainly some of our accepted "norms" would be different today!

[EdFirth]

Holton did build at least one detachable bell(up and front) for Jake. Russ Ward was playing on it when I got to central Florida in 1983. He sold it to Bob Carpenter a few years later and just a few years ago Bob put a "York Brass" one piece raincatcher on it as well as a bunch of other mods.He probably still has the original bell stack with both bells somewhere. It's a great sounding friendly horn .Ed

[LCTuba89]

They are 3-loop (not 4-loop) tubas

So, I am guessing the 4 loop made the shorter and fatter? I have never counted wraps before, interesting.

I think the extra loop added more resistance so the horn wouldn't be as free blowing. To my knowledge the 4th valve tubing also had the same bore as the other 3 valves which made the lower register really stuffy. Alex C somewhere has stated that the Holtons were offered with 3 different lead-pipes which changed the overall playing characteristics of the horn. One lead-pipe offered excellent intonation but a terrible lower register. The next one offered good intonation and a good lower register. The last one offered terrible intonation and a excellent lower register. At the the time these horns were made, there weren't many (if any all) anti-stuffy mouthpieces like the ones we have now, so many chose to go with option 2 (if they even had the choice).

In contrast, my BMB horn is a 3 loop design with an enlarged 4th valve slide tube. The lead-pipe is probably an intonation friendly one and the result being excellent intonation (except the typical flat 5th found in most tubas) and a thunderous free blowing low register. The trade-off being it is very free blowing, but the provided mouthpiece is actually designed to counter that free blowing nature while still retaining great playability.

A Holton (if it was built correctly) is an amazing instrument and there were several up for sale at the time when I was looking for a 6/4. However not taking any chances with getting a dud (as I was already playing a dud known as a MW 2155R), I stuck with a BMB which has excellent consistency.

Edit: My BMB is actually a 4 loop horn and the Holton actually has a larger 4th valve than the rest of the valves on the 345. I need to be more thorough with my investigations it seems.

[roweenie]

A story that I'd heard years back (from very credible sources) was that Jacobs really wanted Holton to build him a bell-front CC tuba. He wanted this for the concerts at Ravinia and was disappointed when they built it with an upright bell. It would've been interesting if Jacobs had played on a bell-front with the Chicago Symphony at some point! Certainly some of our accepted "norms" would be different today!

Yes Paul, I've heard this story, also. I also heard that the horn built for him, for that specific purpose, had a detachable upright bell, so I don't see any reason why he couldn't have easily obtained a recording bell to fit. Maybe there is more to that story than any of us know (or will ever know).

If our sources are one and the same, I believe I am now the current owner of that upright detachable bell..... (?)

[Matt Walters]

The dates of production were 1951 to 1975

Danny Brown of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra bought a new CC-345 in late 1976 or early 1977 and then his brother Donny Brown bought a new CC-345 later in 1977.
Giardinelli's was advertising them at $1200 in lacquer.

[Matt Walters]

I don't believe they enjoyed receiving orders for those. Having taken several apart, I suspect they were equally enthusiastic about building them.

Having seen how poorly built those Holton tubas were when taking them apart and the same for many Alexanders, I am of the opinion being taken off the French Horn building line and told to slap together a few tubas was a punishment. i.e. "Since you messed up one to many French horns by being the weak link here (or made a pass at the foreman's wife), you get to do tubas. The sooner you slap those things together, the sooner you can come back and relax making tiny French horns."

[tofu]

I remember a visit to the Kenosha plant around that time

bloke "Do I have currently own any of these tubas...??? uh...no...no...I don't."

So Holton was in Kenosha - I always assumed they had been in ELkhorn, WI for some reason. I seem to recall having one years ago with Elkhorn on the engraving.

[toobagrowl]

Not a Holton 345, but this thread has me thinking about my old Holton 350/105 (Bell says BB 350, serial# puts it at 1967, has the larger ferrules, yet with the sousaphone-style valveset).
Pitch tendencies are similar to what bloke stated. I've been tooting on it the last few days during this "off-season".
I find the metal quite thick, and one day I'd like to get the dents taken out. Would be nice to find an upright bell for it someday. But I've gotta say this tuba still sounds better than any other 6/4 I've played/heard - even the expensive/fancy 6/4 York-o-phones.
I still have cassette tape recordings from concerts I did back in the 1990s with this tuba

Despite what ppl say about build quality (yeah the 3rd valve circuit tubing has 'funky' alignment), these tubas were completely hand-made. Even the slide-tubes were hand-hammered Very apparent on my vintage Holton BBb & Eb tubas.

[gionvil]

My Holton, which should be more or less of the late '60s, has no engraving on the bell. Did all Holtons bear an engraving on the bell and this one somehow wasn't finished for some reason? It seems to have an area of not satin but shiny silver where the engraving should have been made..

[roweenie]

Even the slide-tubes were hand-hammered

How was this accomplished?