TubeNet

I tried this stuff one time many years ago in college when I had to perform a trombone concerto as I had always been super nervous in solo situations. In some ways, it worked great - no anxiety, shortness of breath, or thumping heart (thus no quaver in my sustained notes). But there was a serious downside: it made my mouth dry as a bone. This made it extremely uncomfortable on the mouthpiece/hard to get tones started and it seems like every measure of rest found me spraying my little water bottle into my mouth! It looks kind of stupid in the video. That was the end of that.

The nerves aren't really a problem for me anymore as I pretty much know what I can and can't play but here is a technique I used to use when there was some worry about a solo passage or something really exposed and scary: running. I would get all warmed up and play the passage/solo, the put the horn down and sprint around the building a few times until my heart was pounding and I was out of breath. I'd sprint directly into the practice room and then try to play the passage with thumping heart and not enough air. Repeat several times. My logic told me that there was no way the onstage version would be this bad and I was right... in performance when the old ticker started up, it was still a far cry from wind sprints. Your mileage may vary!

Stryk wrote:With a group, I am fine

ah, I was wondering how I missed this problem, but I always play with a group, can't think of any exception, can't even think of a reason why I would ever perform alone. I kind of need a little tingle of fear, to keep me focused. Caffeine is good.

Legit musicians who take a beta blocker once in a while are just celebrating an ancient tradition of musicians getting juiced up and playing. Alcohol going back probably to the invention of music, weed beginning in the US anyway with classic jazz greats like Louis Armstrong, Gene Krupa. LSD etc. among rock musicians starting in the '60s.

Of course it's hard to say for sure exactly how much of this is for performance enhancement, vs. just preferring to be drunk or whatever, it's a grey area. Maybe you don't even play quite as well with a couple beers in you, but you enjoy it more - that's a little different kind of performance enhancement. But there would be no point, if we didn't enjoy performing, true? I'm for whatever leads to more authentic joy in performing. As far as I know there isn't a simple, reliable way to get there via beer or pills or whatever, but it's getting there that counts.

As for the college music teacher -- I guess I would be wondering whether teachers ought to be thinking about how to address excessive nerves in young students. If there are ways to teach kids to cope with performance anxiety, without drugs, that would be a lot better than turning them on to beta blockers, no?

I get a bit nervous when playing a solo out in front of the band or a solo in church with piano accomp. I just eat two bananas beforehand. It works for me.

What's fair is when the player who's going to be the best performer, wins the audition. If you have a problem with stage fright and you won't do what needs to be done to solve that problem, then you won't be the best performer, whatever your potential otherwise. There isn't any kind of moral question here, I think it's just, do you really get the most out of yourself by calming your nerves with these drugs, or could there be a price to pay, and are there other ways to deal with it without paying that price.

... and, is it the same when it's your choice for yourself, vs. pointing a student that way as a solution.

Adam Peck wrote:I do see it as a moral issue.

Adam Peck wrote:I'm not making a judgement about the drugs either way, I simply choose not to use them.

This could stand some clarification.

Adam Peck wrote:Is this just an extension of the world's reliance on drugs? Can't sleep...take a pill. Can't stay awake...take a pill. Want to lose weight...take a pill. Can't maintain an erection? Don't lose weight and eat a lower fat diet...take a pill.

Would you say these pill solutions are in each case good ones, at a practical level - problem solved, without negative consequences? That wouldn't be my expectation, and while of course I don't see that as a moral issue in the way the word is normally used, it casts drugs in a dubious light that's not too different.

But then I'm just about as skeptical of any kind of pharmaceutical remedy, past maybe aspirin. I do take a nutritional supplement, quercetin, and vitamin C, in unnaturally high amounts, for hay fever relief, and I am half sure it has a very slight positive effect on my normally torpid mental state. I feel that this is OK, and wouldn't be embarrassed at all to be unmasked as someone who's getting a small unnatural advantage with quercetin supplements. Is there a difference?

I've been taking propanolol for a few weeks as an experiment in dealing with Essential Tremor symptoms. As bloke said, it doesn't enhance anything. Yes, dealing with anxiety can be debilitating for some performers. Yes, some have had success with yoga, Zen, TM, some it doesn't help. Beta blockers are safe and non-addictive, but there's no guarantee on effectiveness for stage or tremor. Any comparison to steroids and athletes can only be attributed to ignorance of the medication.
What about a glass of wine or a shot before a performance? Does that insult your sensibilities?

eupher61 wrote:I've been taking propanolol for a few weeks as an experiment in dealing with Essential Tremor symptoms.

How has it worked? I believe my case is more Intention Tremor in the right hand: The hand does not shake continuously, but when doing something that requires fine motor control, then it becomes difficult to control and sort of goes stupid. So writing is slow and ugly. And some finger combinations are hard to do now -- 124 eflat, for example -- as is picking up a coin. Also loss of proprioception, so instruments that require the fingers to know where they are (keyboard, woodwind) have become difficult. BUT MY BACK IS STILL GOOD!

Interesting thread...

Some of the original research on the use of propanolol was conducted by Dr. Charles O. Brantigan in the 1970's. He's a cardiothoracic and vascular surgeon in Denver and founded with his wife, Kathy Aylsworth Brantigan, the Denver Brass. Some may recognize her as a former ITEA secretary and host of the 2006 Denver ITEC.

Because Chuck and I played together as classmates in a brass group he organized in medical school and because I was in a practice dealing primarily with college students I became aware of his research early on. The relative absence of deleterious side-effects from propanolol makes it nearly ideal for use in this situation. If a student complained of performance anxiety I had no problem prescribing it in small quantities for such use. Many times just the repeated successful negotiation of what was usually a very traumatic experience would provide sufficient positive feedback to enable them to confidently approach performances without the beta blocker.

While I myself have in the remote past (high school) suffered from debilitating performance anxiety, I've never used propanolol. I've only performed in groups since then, and have learned not to worry what others think about my playing. This, after all, is the key to overcoming 'stage fright' and just playing for the sake of the music and the fun of it.

As chemicals go, propanolol is extremely safe. More so, I think, than caffeine, nicotine, or alcohol. I have to smile when I see idiots touting 'organic' remedies because they are anything but pure. A pure synthetic compound contains no contaminants, whereas grinding up and processing plants can produce concoctions with unknown components with unknown properties or known components with known harmful properties.

I don't see how eating a banana is morally different than taking a pill if the intent is to relax and perform at maximum capability. After all, the banana contains chemicals, too. Just because they come in a convenient yellow package that's available at the local grocery doesn't give them any moral superiority if you take them not as food but as performance enhancers.

Adam Peck wrote:Donn, it seems you are taking quercetin and vitamin C to treat a common medical condition. Can we call being nervous before your oboe solo a medical condition? This does get into a grey area,I know.

Hay fever can be an issue for me in late spring and early summer. It's over now - and I'm still enjoying the putative mental benefits of quercetin supplements, and have no plans to cut back. (Wikipedia might tell you it's a mono-amine oxidase inhibitor, another class of chemicals with psychoactive effects. I think it's inconsequential in that capacity - real MAO inhibitors come with food restrictions etc. Who knows. Fewer headaches, may feel more alert, but it's impossible to be scientific about it. It's enough for the sake of discussion that I think I'm getting a competitive psychoactive benefit from it. It's a bioflavonoid or similar, like taking vitamins. Ideally, I'm the type of person gwwilk calls an idiot, who would rather get it from apples etc., but I'd have to eat a carload daily.)

I haven't seen many people willing to admit that they use inderal in high pressure situations. Let me be the first. If I know that I am facing a pressure type performance, usually solo or audition (solo), or interview, that 10mg pill allows "me" to be and perform like "me." I see absolutely no problem with this. I have worked my tail off for years in the practice room to hone my musical skills. It's a darn shame to not perform my best because my stupid hands shake.

There was one defining moment for me that lead me to seek out medicinal assistance. In 2004, my first year being a full time "professional," I was invited to play a solo at the TUSAB conference. It was the no-so-attended 8:00am slot, and I shouldn't have been even the slightest bit jittery. I played Neal Corwell's "Aboriginal Voices" for solo tuba and tape. After a very brief soundcheck, I met Neal for the first time. I was a 23 year old punk kid who just scored a gig, and honestly I was a little star struck (yeah... I was a huge tuba dork. Still am, in fact!)
Needless to say, I nearly soiled myself when the first note that emerged from my tuba sounded like a little rat fart. It could not have been a worse performance, and I can still remember all the chatter in my head, not a single drop of moisture in my mouth, profuse sweating, shaking, and pounding chest/throat. It was laughable, and THE worst performance I'd ever given or heard. I distinctly remember how ashamed I was to embarrass myself in front of a bunch of tubists. I still have the recording, and get a good chuckle from it.

So, I pursued assistance, because I couldn't ever let that happen again. 10mg is the perfect dose to keep my adrenaline under control, while still allowing me to get excited about performing. I'm able to put into the horns exactly what I've practiced for so many hours. For me, inderal eliminates the shakes, pounding heart, and most importantly, the negative self talking. I'm focused, and as Calm as I can be. My senses aren't in any way altered, but sharpened, not having to deal with external symptoms of fight or flight.

My caveat, I rarely use inderal. I don't use it to practice, rehearse, perform in groups, or any other situation that is not a solo or audition. In my job, I've played more than 70 solo engagements, for crowds upward of 3000. Not once did I experience the same situation I felt on that dreaded DC morning. Honestly, after I've done something a few times, I often ditch the drugs, and carry on.

I think more use inderal and other drugs than you'd think. We enjoy the heck out of their performances, often having no clue they need a little "help." To open a new can of worms, I've recently learned about the rampant use of adderral in the medical and law communities as an edge to pass demanding exams and perform at their best under stressful situations. I know that if I were going under the knife of a skilled surgeon, I wouldn't care at all what he did to ensure that his skills are sharp. I don't see any negative consequence to removing inhibitors of those capable at performing at an extremely high level.

What's the deal? People have PAID to sit in the seats, and so expect you to be at your finest. What DOES it do? It allows better concentration in situations where you might not otherwise have it. What does it also do? Knock the edge of your playing, of being "in the moment" where you might add MORE than you would if you used it. So I use it sparingly, and only when absolutely necessary. It does NOT allow you to play better than you can, notes that you normally can't, run faster or jump higher. But it allows you to play when your shaking or panic might lead to a career-ending FAIL...

In the 1990's I developed ocassional atrial fibrilation, irregular heatbeat. With the help of medication, both Propafenone (anti-arhythmic drug) and Propranolol (The beta blocker in question in this thread) my heart arhythmia problem is controlled. I have been performing since the middle 1970's in orchestras, chamber music groups and solo recitals. I haven't noticed any difference in my pre-performance emotions before and after the prescritiption of Propranolol. If the drug is performance enhancing, I want money back. I have lost auditions before and after taking the the drug.

There are strict rules about advocating drugs to a student in a university teacher-student relationship. So I don't discuss this with my students in lessons. That said, I have used Propranolol a handful of times. There came a time a few years back when I felt like I really needed it and was afraid that my tolerance of and ability to handle the adrenaline dump that occurs during performances might have diminished to the point that I was "wearing out" and maybe facing using these drugs regularly. However, after using them a handful of times (totally successfully BTW, and very helpful in preventing the symptoms without removing my mental capacity) I found that I didn't need them anymore. I recently discarded the 75%+ remaining from an unused, dusty jar in my medicine cabinet.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Here's mine: This is no moral issue. You can't logically make the case that taking these drugs is any different than taking vitamins or any other prescribed medicine for improved health. It is the same concept. I would no more hesitate to take a beta blocker (assuming that the doctor has taught you what you need to know and sanctioned use of the drug) than I would an aspirin for a headache. Any drug can be misused and dependency is a whole other issue. Anything, including some things that are not drugs, can become a dependency and that is what would concern me. If you choose to live your life that way, that's fine with me. You're no different than anyone else who chooses not to eat meat, or drink alcohol, or any host of other personal choices for whatever reasons you have. None of these issues are moral, they are lifestyle choices. Isn't it great to live in a culture where you have those freedoms of choice?

I, too, take offense at the OPs implication. Do you take an antihistamine or antibiotic when appropriate symptoms present themselves to you? Do you take a cough drop? Use a nasal spray? Have a water bottle on stage?

Adam, you can ignore me if you want, but that attitude is downright stupid. There. It's said.
I did not say YOU.

Medication is medication. LEGAL medication, that is, including legitimately needed marijuana. I withhold comment on other substances and applications

eupher61 wrote:Medication is medication. LEGAL medication, that is, including legitimately needed marijuana. I withhold comment on other substances and applications

So if certain antibiotics were made illegal (and there would be reason for doing so), they wouldn't be medicine any more? Medicine is medicine, law is law - the two really don't have anything to do with each other. Law in a more general sense would include the sporting event bans on beta blockers in rifle competition. Here the rules make a level playing ground for fair competition. Is an orchestra audition a similar situation? I'd say no, it isn't anything like a sporting event, but I'm pretty far from that scene!

I like to under-eat prior to performing (in orchestra), and have an apple before I warm up, about half hour before concert starts. As long as I have my large bottle of water with me I'm fine (just hate when it is hot on the stage, now THAT bothers me, and I'm getting a portable battery operated fan for my stand).

Adam

Adam, this is a very interesting topic, please do not let others like bloke Sellmansberger derail your thread. He has a tendency to constantly mock my threads as well because he dislikes them. I find in these situations the best you can do is move forward and don't let it get to you.

bloke wrote:oh well...

I didn't ignore your mean-spirited jab post...

...and going out of your way to mention those that you view as the same is a might odd way of ignoring them.

You're a very smart gentleman and often contribute truly terrific advice for those on Tubenet in need. This is evident in your vast knowledge of repairs, tweaks, and personal experience anectotes. I truly think you're a nice guy most of the time so it wasn't meant as a "mean-spirited jab." I just don't see why you sometimes feel the urge to mock threads with sarcastic remarks if they bother you that much.... I like the helpful Joe, not the sarcastic bloke

This thread actually does feature the helpful Joe, and it's something of a disservice to the thread to use it for personal attacks.

bloke wrote: I just assume that - since "presumptuous asses" seem to be one of their pet peeves - that they might like to be alerted themselves when following down that same path...

bloke "...and yes, I think your horn-winner survey was kinda dumb. Horn-chasin' got plenty of folks nowhere."

You make valid points, but I fail to see how my list fit into the category of "presumptuous asses"... if you are not alluding that this was your way of letting me know that I was "going down that path" then I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

I respect your opinion on my horn-winner thread but just don't see the need for mocking unless you assumed it was a troll thread. I don't know if you read my replies to your posts, but I tried to clarify that the reason for the thread's existence is not "horn chasing," simply thirst for knowledge with a dose of curiosity.

For what it's worth, I don't consider you a presumptuous *** or dislike you. You're a valuable member to the community and I'm glad we have help gentlemen like you that eagerly contribute, I just could do without the sarcasm.