Very flat partial

[toobagrowl]

Goodgigs has talked about how there are a couple wonky pitches on the clear tuba due to the upper bow not being 'round' and of the correct taper. If you listen carefully, you can hear the 'flatness' of the bottom-line G on the Youtube vids of that tuba (that you now own). Didn't know it was that flat, though. Looks like you are gonna have to use alternate fingerings for bottom-line G and Gb/F# (1+3, & 1+2+3)

[Donn]

I had a baritonoid instrument with a super flat 2nd partial - Bb, A ... Ab not that bad ... G OK. I couldn't find the problem. A subsequent owner may have, not totally sure about that.

But in this case, though I couldn't find it, tech couldn't find it, whether anyone ever found it, I'm sure there was a defect there, a defect in that individual horn. Because: I don't believe a manufacturer would ever put a design like that on the production line, let alone send it out to retail. (It was not of Chinese origin.) I know it isn't uncommon at all for a tuba design to have a bad partial, but this was stark, completely unmanageable. If it isn't playing right, don't be so sure it doesn't have any leaks. Valve misalignment might be worth considering, too.

[Jay Bertolet]

My Rudy 4/4 has exactly this issue. It's no big deal really, I learned to use 1-3 for the G and 5-2-3 for the F#. Worked perfectly. Over time, as happens with most horns, you eventually learn to adjust how you approach those notes and they begin to creep closer to in tune. I don't use my Rudy 4/4 much anymore but lately it seems to me like the problem is less severe even though nothing has changed on the instrument. It always comes down to the question of what intonation quirks are you willing to put up with for the sound you get out of that horn. None of these horns are perfect.

[Donn]

I'm not saying I have ever heard of valve issues causing an intonation problem, just something I considered when I was looking for mine. A trip to the shop would of course cover that, or you could even just experiment with not-all-the-way up or down and see if anything happens.

How flat is that note (relatively speaking) on the old Conn short action valve tubas, 20K, 20J etc? Is that bad, 50 cents?

[gregsundt]

I can use 2-3-4 for G and 1-3-4 for F#, then F is manageable. I had not even considered it being because the top bow was a bit oval..... interesting. The horn actually plays VERY well, and the intonation everywhere else seems good.

The tubas I've played that have this quirk, interestingly, have had few other intonation issues. It's almost as if the mfr tried to design the common intonation problems out of a horn, only to find they had built in something even more irksome. My 4/4 Rudy was that way, though not as bad as some I have tried. Alexes, big Rudys, even some B&S/Alex stencils. Good-playing and good-sounding horns. Just that one slot at the bottom of the staff...

It will come. Good players and good instruments always learn to get along.

[joh_tuba]

Most 6/4 sized 'American' tubas have painfully flat 3rd partials like you describe.

[roweenie]

Most 6/4 sized 'American' tubas have painfully flat 3rd partials like you describe.

I disagree.

I seem to remember that the flat 3rd partial was specific to Conn tubas (I once owned a BBb Orchestral Grand that was almost an E natural on that partial).

I think it's way too general to paint all "American" 6/4 horns with the same wide brush due to the quirks of one particular model (or manufacturer).

I have played more York 6/4 tubas (in BBb) that were spot-on in regard to that partial than were not.

My $.02

Bob

[roweenie]

Interesting analysis of joh_tuba's post, and you might be right.

I'd be curious to read his own defense of such a statement, however.

[toobagrowl]

I can use 2-3-4 for G and 1-3-4 for F#, then F is manageable.

I've yet to get my head around 234 for G and 134 for F# on a CC tuba..... That partial should be flat, but not an entire 1/2 step flat, especially with all the added tubing which tends to make things sharper.

The tuner doesn't lie. Even working off the 6th partial, the fingering should be 1-4 or 1-2-4. It FEELS like a false tone.

Just seems easier and more logical to use 1+3 for bottom-line G and 1+2+3 for Gb. Why use more convoluted fingerings?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

This is probably not super helpful, but I distinctly remember having a similar problem, albeit at a much younger age. My junior high had these two really old King euphonims that could not play Bb in the staff. Every note above and below it was fine, but that Bb was completely unusable. I would say that me being in eigth grade didn't help.matters, but I could play that note fairly in-tune (again, eighth grader) on every other euphonium, and everyone else who played the King euphs had the same problem I had. But how does stuff like that even happen? How could manufacturers be that careless? Curious.

[toobagrowl]

I wanted to let this pass, but I just couldn't...

Just seems easier and more logical to use 1+3 for bottom-line G and 1+2+3 for Gb. Why use more convoluted fingerings?

1-3 is also almost 1/2 step flat

That's what I was thinking: huh

If anything, the 1+3 combo for that note should be a little sharp, not flat. Something is "off" here.

@Stryk: Do you have the 3rd slide pulled way out or something? Or maybe you are still getting used to that tuba?

[Donn]

It does? I'd expect to find solder blobs, leaky joints, etc. in all kinds of production tubas, so would this intonation phenomenon be similarly ubiquitous?

[Donn]

but why would that make just ONE partial so flat

You've reported at least two partials with flat notes, the way I understand it. 3rd partial starting at G, and 4th partial starting at C and adding valves 1 and 3 to get G.

[jeopardymaster]

Re blobs of solder, gunk, spurs - I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure that the closer an aberration is to the mouthpiece, the more likely it is to affect intonation, and the less significant it has to be in terms of size. Case in point - my 184 has always had good intonation, but initially I had a VERY flat 8th partial. I had to play middle c with my 5th valve (sharp 2-3 configuration). When I described that issue to a fellow in Pittsburgh named Ted Woehr (spelling?), he offered to look at it. With a borescope he discovered a burr at the water key. He smoothed it out, and voila! - brought that note in line. It might be worthwhile for you to check the insides of the horn for imperfections, especially from the receiver through the valve block to the tuning slide.