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When I started playing tuba my first teacher constantly said, "Happy face, sad tone; sad face, happy tone". I never felt comfortable playing with a frowning face. My mouth seems to sit more naturally with the sides facing up than down so I would unnaturally have to force them down to play that way and it felt uncomfortable.

The question is: is this advice to play with a "sad face" good advice? I see many pros with this prototypical embouchure (see Don Harry and Chuck Daellenbach for perfect examples), but I see just as many with a smiling or almost smiling embouchure. I think Arnold Jacobs always used to say that he didn't mess with a students embouchure but with the musical message he sends in. What do you think of teachers messing with it right when you start?

I'm not so sure it counts as "messing with it" if it is what a teacher is teaching that "right when you start." That's just good teaching of a beginner, it seems to me.

Talking about frowning is just a tool. It's a "swing thought," as a golf pro might say. The point is not frowning, but having the corners a bit tight, the jaw dropped 1/4" or so, and the tongue down, right? The thought of frowning is just a way to accomplish that. I don't see why a teacher shouldn't start a beginner out that way. Heaven knows it's plenty hard to move that direction once you've formed different habits. Or at least I do.

Check out this clinic by Raymond G. Young. He speaks to embouchure on part 1, I think. He seems like he'd object to doing anything artificial with your face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64CMQck ... 902EA5528E

I don't seem to be able to frown easily (with or without a horn). To do so requires me to distort my lips. My teach for my freshman year in college tried to get me to frown and we just could not make it happen. So instead we just settled on having me use less pressure and not pulling out my corners. He also taught me to anchor the corners.

dwerden wrote:Check out this clinic by Raymond G. Young. He speaks to embouchure on part 1, I think. He seems like he'd object to doing anything artificial with your face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64CMQck ... 902EA5528E

I don't seem to be able to frown easily (with or without a horn). To do so requires me to distort my lips. My teach for my freshman year in college tried to get me to frown and we just could not make it happen. So instead we just settled on having me use less pressure and not pulling out my corners. He also taught me to anchor the corners.

Yes, I had a teacher who demanded that the corner of my mouth face down when I played. I could never make it happen easily or comfortably and it killed my tone and range on the tuba. It's almost like some teachers have a cookie cutter approach to teaching and they have to use the same technique on every player they come across. People have different shaped jaws, lips, mouths, and teeth. To demand everyone have a certain embouchure that works for some (but not all) is folly. It almost seemed like that teacher set me back a year when he tried to force me into an uncomfortable playing situation and he would have been better served concentrating on getting the musician in the student to more fully develop.

I don't advocate doing anything strange to a young (or even highly advanced) player's face, as Mr. Werden said. Different "embouchures" work for different people. If it sounds good, leave it alone. If it sounds bad, motivate good sound with coaching of good sound, not by any kind of physical/muscular analysis.

It always amazes me the things people come up with. My eyebrow muscles are not attached to my chop muscles, and for me a frown is a movement of my eyebrow muscles and would not affect my chop setting in the slightest. People make assumptions based on their own physiology and then try to apply it to other people's physiology, and it doesn't work. If the teacher wants a certain embouchure position, that is what he should be describing, not something that goes on with the eyebrows.

bloke wrote:"firm"...not "frown".

"Frown" means "down", and opens the door to exaggeration and distortion/contortion.

+1

a teacher should always be warm and encouraging, a frown will not get the best from a student.

Sounds like something that started with a trumpet lesson many years ago where the corners were supposed to come forward. As in, "stop smiling". I don't remember ever seeing a real frown, but some people's mouths are shaped a little more that way all the time.

facial expressions indicate different things that are going on behind the skin that we are not always aware. steve mead did an excellent you tube session - from italy - in which he spoke a bit about scrooching the nose and how it affects the stridency of the sound by pinching the nasal cavity. 'mea culpa' as i found i did it a bit. upon relaxing the muscles around the nose - and the eyebrows - and avoiding the snarly look - i found the tone sweetened a bit - a quality i had tried for years to achieve but never quite knew how. for myself, i do subscribe to 'bull dog' corners - but not tense - and try to keep the rest of the facial musicals fluid - that is in a sense - not tight like a vice grip. in the old days when i studied with mr. jacobs - i recall him reiterating 'think happy.' - stress in the body rarely if ever helped anything be easier. anything that is locked into place as far as musculature defeats the attempt to be flexible in ones playing.

paul - whose shift key is not working - hence no caps or parenthesis - maybery

I had a few teachers that would tell me something similar but I struggled for a long time because I could never get the "frown" to feel natural and comfortable on my face. It wasn't until this summer that I asked a well respected professor in the tuba community about my problem, and she told me to be committed to only one style of playing, and if the "frowning" doesn't work, do what does. My playing has greatly improved since I've stopped worrying about it.

Experiment and see what works for your student. I don't think teaching both styles of playing is good for the student, but if one isn't working, change it before it becomes a drawn out problem like my situation was.

Often, where I find the problem is the teeth. When you smile, teeth can be right where the opening of your lips. When you firm the corner, or form a slight frown, you can move the aperture between the teeth. Teeth can cause airily sound. It can make lips flap (buzz) on the teeth, and this also does not make a good buzz.

My teacher always said, if it is working, don't fix it; if it is not, fix it. Everyone has differently shaped face.

I forgot to mention teeth! That same freshman year that they talked of making me frown, there was also a trend in the brass department have all low brass players point the mouthpiece somewhat downward. Most people have an overbite and that is compatible with a downward-pointing mouthpiece. But I have an even bite, and pointing the mp down simply did not work. Fortunately my private teacher was understanding and did not push that point (although I think he had to explain his reasoning to the powers-that-were).

Taking a hint from Procrustes of Greek myth - a department like that should take the obvious step and have those non-conforming jaws and teeth modified.

Donn wrote:Taking a hint from Procrustes of Greek myth - a department like that should take the obvious step and have those non-conforming jaws and teeth modified.

Maybe that would have been better for me in the long run!

I wouldn't, since I don't. Air and vibrations are the only constants; after that, you have to adapt to the student

Nobody ever told me to frown, but I wonder if that's why I do frown when playing upright bass.