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Anyone know if the Chinese horns sold by these guys undergo any adjustment/modifications after being shipped from China (i.e. valve alignment, valve lapping, removal of debri, etc)? Or is it mostly just checking to make sure they are mechanically functional? Was considering the Hirsbrunner BBb copy and was wondering what the intonation and valve quality is like these days.

I bought a piston valve tuba from jimlaabs about a year ago. The valves functioned flawlessly and the horn was clean as a whistle inside. They do not align the valves, I know that for sure... The one I got was the 5 valve BBb, intonation was spot on extremely good. The biggest problem is inconsistency of response and backpressure throughout the range, very uneven playing.

This is a great question to ask dealers directly but the best honest answers come from customers who have made purchases so i will speak for myself.

First off we have a guestbook that real customers sign and whatever they write gets posted.

We go though an extensive and very thorough check of every horn that passes through our shop, then we test play all instruments before they go out. Have we been perfect? Have we missed things? Yes, but it doesn't happen very often.

The way you can tell if an instrument has been looked at is simply look at the box to see if its been previously opened and resealed. If not then you may be in for, damages from China, frozen valves and miss aligned slides, these are the biggest issues. After the instruments are manufactured they could be in transit from China sitting in a box for 4 to 8 weeks before they arrive at the shop. We focus on making the horns ready to go so when they arrive all you need to do is maintain it. We sell about 100 instruments a month so we don't carry much inventory, they come in and go right back out after they are prepped. Dealers that carry inventory may have the horns in a box for several more months after the shipping from China so dry valves and slides are a minimum guarantee.

I have had people call me who after making purchases from some other dealers asking about how to take care of the most common Issues on their new purchases and its a shame that there are shops that never check on what they are selling prior to shipping it out. They take the order and pull it off the shelf and just ship them out.

I take my lead from Dillon and Baltimore Brass who I appreciate what they do and how they do it.
We now, have one person that goes through all our horns then I personally review the work before packing. With only 8 returns in 4 years and well over 2000 instruments sold, this is just part of how we keep returns down to a minimum. Is there room for improvement? yes and we will continue to do so with feedback from customers as well as looking at how to continuously make improvements.

Regards

Tom

BBbmarcher wrote:Anyone know if the Chinese horns sold by these guys undergo any adjustment/modifications after being shipped from China (i.e. valve alignment, valve lapping, removal of debri, etc)? Or is it mostly just checking to make sure they are mechanically functional? Was considering the Hirsbrunner BBb copy and was wondering what the intonation and valve quality is like these days.

I think Tom has given you the answer you want. (Indirectly)

In my experience, the last two of the companies you mention (MM and Jim Laabs) don't look over their horns. The first two do, as do Baltimore Brass and Dillon.

For what it's worth...... I went with a friend of mine to Tom McGrady's house to have a look at his inventory of horns. My friend walked away with a brand new Mack Brass euphonium. He's been playing it now for 3 or 4 years and loves it.
Having meet Tom I believe he's not going to let any horn that isn't up to some pretty high standards leave his home. If it does he will make good on it .

bloke wrote:I've never bought a new or near-new German-made tuba that I didn't have to (at least) to a little bit of something to it.

In readings of experiences here on TubeNet, it seems most every brand needs a little tuning up before delivery to the customer. That's why choice of dealer is of consequence. If an instrument comes in the dealer's back door in need of adjustments, it shouldn't go out the front door to the customer without being adjusted.

You can rely on Tom McGrady, who told you what he does above. And you can rely on Wessex. If you buy from the others, you might get lucky.

If Mack Brass has what you want, it's probably best to go to Tom first, because the instrument *will* be checked and adjusted before it goes out the door, and will probably cost you the least. And if you aren't satisfied, he will pay the shipping back to his warehouse, with no jiggery-pokery like "restocking fees".

If he doesn't have the horn you want, go to Wessex. On the whole, prices are slightly higher there, but it is a business of total integrity that you can rely on. I don't know how much checking and adjusting they do off-hand, but I would be astonished if the answer was none. I feel sure they check horns over and make sure they're good. I've bought two horns directly from them and one on the used market, and been entirely happy with every interaction and transaction I've had with them. Stand up people you can count on.

I hear Dillon's also makes sure everything is good when they sell such horns. The selection seems much narrower there, though, and I have no personal experience.

Beyond these, you're gambling, in my opinion, and the odds aren't great.

Yes please put Mack, Wessex, and Dillon in a special category. In my mind a very different product from the import-only guys.

Also be sure to compare the offerings. Wessex for instance offers some unique-to-Wessex instruments that will not be offered by others. I also recommend speaking directly to them and simply asking for exactly what you want. They do have some freedom to customize the instruments. And while this may blow out your timeline it may ultimately be worth it to get exactly what you want.

Keep a close eye on any offers to price match the competitors. If the instrument is in any (even small) way different than the competition, it will be treated as such and you will not get any benefit from a similar but not same match.

Be sure to look up the return policy for each. Since you are working with long delivery times and available stock selling out faster than expected you may not have the luxury to go and pick out the exact horn that is right for you. Having a decent return policy will protect your investment.

I recommend Mack for best price and Wessex for best variety. They will take care of you.

All new instruments, whether traditional name-brand or not, brass, woodwinds, strings, guitars, whatever, all need fine tuning, not just for the instrument's sake, but to match it to the player. It could be as simple as a new mouthpiece or set of strings. It could be a new bell and a complete reconfiguration of the angle and length of the paddles and placement and angle of the leadpipe and receiver, as on my Bessophone, or anything in between, including checking solder joints, aligning valves, or whatever. The only thing that can be said about the more reputable name brands is that they may require less of this than others. And then again, maybe not.

PMeuph wrote:In my experience, the last two of the companies you mention (MM and Jim Laabs) don't look over their horns

+1

I'm also a happy owner of one of Tom's 410s. Worth mentioning: Tom offers a 7 day return policy, where he pays the return shipping if you don't like the tuba. How can you go wrong with that?

Not shilling, just saying...

While I appreciate all the positive accounts about these sellers, I would also caution that it is still possible to have a very bad experience. One of my students, an excellent euphonium player, made arrangements recently to go try instruments with the intent of purchasing one for himself. He called ahead to all the retailers that were known to have decent stock, received verbal confirmation of what they had in stock or would have in stock during the weekend he would be there, then he purchased an airline ticket and traveled to the location for 2 days of instrument trials. Imagine his chagrin when not only did the shop he visited not have the stock they had promised, but they treated him like they weren't interested at all in his business. My student was particularly surprised that the shop's trombone specialist was the exact opposite in approach as their tuba/euphonium guy. The trombone guy was there to answer customer's questions, show them products, and help them in the selection process. All the things you would expect from a good retailer. The tuba/euph guy was mostly a no-show and my student was left to converse with other customers in the store during his visit.

I have purposely withheld the name of this shop but it is a shop that all of you know here and has a generally good reputation. My point in telling this account is to warn you all that reputations are not necessarily an accurate reflection of the facts. My student wasted his money traveling to try horns that the shop didn't have, even though they said they had them, and now my student will be taking his business elsewhere. My advice to anyone dealing with these places is to call ahead and speak directly to the person you will be dealing with and be totally honest and open with them about what you expect out of the process. Don't depend on their (or the shop's) reputation to get you what you want. This purchase is a big deal for most of us that aren't made out of money and having the right retailer can make all the difference in your purchase.

Jay Bertolet wrote:While I appreciate all the positive accounts about these sellers, I would also caution that it is still possible to have a very bad experience.

Did anyone have a conversation with the owner/manager of this business? Spending money to fly to visit a store should be evidence enough the customer is very serious about a purchase and probably has money in hand. The owner should be able to make this right - discount or some other compensation.

It's not a bad idea Ben and one I considered briefly. However, I don't think at this point there is anything the owner could reasonably offer (outside of cash) to make up for the problem. I'm pretty sure they're not going to do that and I'm pretty confident in that assessment because I personally had an experience with the same establishment and was treated roughly the same. I was trying to contact the shop to have work done on one of my horns and it took several tries for anyone to even respond and when they did, there was only disinterest in doing what was a very straightforward and simple project. I ended up taking my business elsewhere and it worked out great. Despite my bad experience, I still gave this business a chance and recommended them as an option for my student to consider in his search for a horn. Going forward, there will be no more recommendations from me for this place.

I still offer the same advice: Contact whomever at the retailer you'll be dealing with, explain what you're trying to accomplish, and be totally honest with them about your expectations. Press them until you get complete answers about how they'll meet your expectations. At least that way, nobody will be wasting their time and/or money. Don't be fooled into thinking that reputation alone equals a satisfied customer.

I have just read this thread on returning from China to do what? Check every instrument in next batches to UK and USA before they leave the factory and accepting. Wessex has always thoroughly checked every instrument before selling, but there has been big problem of what to do if finish or manufacturing is not good. Not everything is easy, or even possible to correct post production and the cost of returning sub-standard instruments to China is prohibitive.

I have therefore decided now that every Wessex order is at least two containers (one each to UK and USA), to put in new quality control of us checking every batch before it leaves factory. I understand Wessex is the first company to go that extra distance to make sure every horn is a good one.

That does not mean we will not check a second time before onward shipping to customer. As Tom commented above, it will be at least weeks and maybe months later before sale and a valve/slide may have stuck, etc.

So last week Andy Loree and I spent the whole week at factory, not only quality checking orders, but collecting spare parts, initiating yet more improvements to existing models and taking couple more samples of new models to go into production 2015. Every instrument made for Wessex is customised by us to improve, through either design changes, or better materials. The Compensated Eb tuba now has more than 20 improvements over the standard Jinbao instrument - the latest being higher quality durable case, removable slide on 1st compensating loop and floating off-the-bell gold brass swan-necked leadpipe. These improvements obviously make Wessex a bit more expensive than some of our competitors, but I think customers consider it worth paying a bit extra for a higher quality and better playing instrument.

The great worth of the off-the-bell leadpipe was well demonstrated by a comparison test we did at the factory (amazed both Andy and me). I am personally playing one so fitted at present and it really is the best Eb tuba I have ever played. It's one I will be reluctant to sale!

Regarding the Hirsbrunner BBb copy mentioned by OP, the Wessex 5 -valve version does not only have the extra valve, but plays better too and apparently has superior finish (recent buyer could not believe it was made by the same factory as instruments his school had bought from another dealer)

However, getting back to subject of quality checking, every tuba before we accept we remove the valves, check the internal finish, alignment and valve thread to ensure all good. Each slide is pulled and compression checked and that it moves smoothly and without excessive play to leak. Soldering and finish is visually inspected and then it is play tested against tuner checking tone and intonation. Any horn not satisfactory is returned to factory floor for attention. Valves were replaced on a couple instruments where the port finish was not good enough and one tuba went for re-lacquering. We do the check working with production management and staff, and they note down anything unsatisfactory to pay special attention in future orders to ensure there is not a re-occurance. The valve threads, once a too frequent problem - now seem sorted with production methods improved. However Wessex is getting the necessary tools to be able to correct any that get damaged threads post production - so we can offer that assurance to our customers, as well as our usual 3 year warranty.