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Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:38 pm

Just got the Mahler CC raw brass about a month or so ago. The 3rd, sometimes 1st and 4th valves stick. I'm using Yamaha synthetic rotor oil on spindle bearings and Hetman #12 down slide tubes.

I did a full cleaning including muriatic acid on the rotors and plates and brasso on casings (neutralized and dissipated appropriately). Full flush out and re-oil/grease. #3 was still sticky at a rehearsal last night. Any guess as to what is going on? The top of the casings were quite dark when I tapped them out, indicating the horn had been on the bell a while. My water was initially yellow before the cleaning, but was clear last night.

I really like the horn, but this is frustrating.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby KiltieTuba » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:57 pm

http://www.wessex-tubas.com/why-buy-from-wessex-tubas/

Guarantee - all tubas bought from Wessex Tubas are guaranteed against manufacturing defect for three year
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby UncleBeer » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:00 pm

balchb wrote:Just got the Mahler CC raw brass about a month or so ago.


They sell this in raw brass??
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:45 pm

Thanks for the link! And yes, Andy had raw brass... He was out of silver but I really like it!
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby Michael Bush » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:04 pm

When you say "raw brass" do mean there is literally no finish on it whatsoever? So your hands are touching bare, dull, unfinished metal and turn green and smell funny when you play it?

I have never seen one of these like that. Not to say it couldn't exist, but that would be really surprising.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby Wyvern » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:04 am

I am sorry to hear of this valve sticking issue. I think it best if the tuba is returned to Andy and we will get professionally checked out and resolved. The tuba cannot have been sitting for long, as has only just arrived from factory.

Yes it is raw brass. Wessex has had in a few raw brass horns. They are finished as if going to be lacquered, but then left bare brass. We have at least a Champion Eb and C Mighty Gnome like that in stock now - and any Wessex horn can be ordered raw brass. Seems to be fairly popular for the travel tuba - will look like vintage tornistertuba after a while...
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby imperialbari » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:23 am

Which slide grease is dissolved by the oil run down slide tubes?

Are the bottom plates put back on so the bearings are perfectly aligned?

Do the rotors spin freely before the stop arms are mounted?

If the alignments are as they should be, this soundd like too thick and uneven lubrication in the form of grease polluting the oil.

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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:33 am

Neptune wrote:I am sorry to hear of this valve sticking issue. I think it best if the tuba is returned to Andy and we will get professionally checked out and resolved. The tuba cannot have been sitting for long, as has only just arrived from factory.


I'm waiting for his reply to my email.

imperialbari wrote:Which slide grease is dissolved by the oil run down slide tubes?

Are the bottom plates put back on so the bearings are perfectly aligned?

Do the rotors spin freely before the stop arms are mounted?

If the alignments are as they should be, this soundd like too thick and uneven lubrication in the form of grease polluting the oil.

Klaus


I'm using the exact lubricants Andy recommended - Super Lube for the slides, Yamaha synthetic rotor for the spindle bearings and Hetman #12 down the lead pipe and I did some down the slide tubes after cleaning. The behavior of the valve is virtually unchanged.

The rotor still had some rub before attaching the stop arm on the 3rd valve. Plates are level and the notches are aligned.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:40 am

talleyrand wrote:When you say "raw brass" do mean there is literally no finish on it whatsoever? So your hands are touching bare, dull, unfinished metal and turn green and smell funny when you play it?

I have never seen one of these like that. Not to say it couldn't exist, but that would be really surprising.


I practice a couple hours at a time when I can, and yes, every hand print dulls the finish. No green hands, maybe a little smell on the hands from touching any raw metal, but I think the horn has great character.

Raw brass is not for the player concerned with aesthetics...
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:26 am

This was the job. You can see the dulling finish on the larger sections of tubing on the bow and side. The bell is still somewhat shiny because it doesn't get touched nearly as much. The mouthpipe and slides are tarnishing as well. Brass polish could shine it all back up to factory condition, but it'll be right back to where it is now in a matter of months (and remove layers of metal... probably not the smartest idea).

4 hours from first slide being removed until I play-tested it after it was completely put back together. The muriatic acid for the rotors and plates was diluted about 2/3 water to 1/3 acid (30% hydrochloric acid) and neutralized in a separate cup with few tablespoons of baking soda dissolved in water. I used Brasso in the valve casings after giving the horn a bath in the tub with dish soap, then dissipated the brasso with the lighter fluid on a paper towel and fully wiped out and re-rinsed in the tub. I heard that this is the only way to make sure the brasso won't continue reacting after you put the horn back together.

In retrospect, I'd put down towels to distribute the weight evenly when the horn is in the tub with the mouthpipe facing upward (the only way I could fully submerge the casings and valve slides without filling the tub completely). I had to bend the outer brace of the water key just a touch to re-attach the water key. :oops:

As the horn is shown in the pic, the bottom of the casings and rotors had some heavy black tarnishing, particularly in the 3rd and 4th valves. Also in the very back of the 1st rotor there was some heavier black tarnish in the casing. The muriatic acid did a pretty good job on the rotors, although it didn't fully remove all of the deposits in the "C's" of the valves.

Can you use brasso on the rotors? I didn't want to because I was afraid I'd change the dimensions of the rotor and prematurely wear the valve down.

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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby tuben » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:31 am

balchb wrote:I practice a couple hours at a time when I can, and yes, every hand print dulls the finish. No green hands, maybe a little smell on the hands from touching any raw metal, but I think the horn has great character.


I consistently get 'tubagreen' on my left hand from my Alex CC. (Both Alex's are now unlacquered, mod before my purchase, the MW is slowly getting there through attrition.) I've also found the opposite that each hand print, overtime polishes that spot unlike what is around it. Nice shiny spots from 'use' make me feel warm and squishy.

balchb wrote:Raw brass is not for the player concerned with aesthetics...


Some of us find the seeming chaos of nature (as expressed through naturally occurring patinas), beautiful.

http://www.baltimorebrass.net/picture.php?table=Instruments&id=1828
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:38 am

tuben wrote:I consistently get 'tubagreen' on my left hand from my Alex CC. (Both Alex's are now unlacquered, mod before my purchase, the MW is slowly getting there through attrition.) I've also found the opposite that each hand print, overtime polishes that spot unlike what is around it. Nice shiny spots from 'use' make me feel warm and squishy.


Some of us find the seeming chaos of nature (as expressed through naturally occurring patinas), beautiful.

http://www.baltimorebrass.net/picture.php?table=Instruments&id=1828


Cool pic! Obviously mine being brand new isn't to the point of the brass turning hands green or being the shiny spot where you touch the most! Some folks have to have the lacquer or silver finish to suit their mindset, but I really like the chaotic experience of becoming one with the metal of the horn.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby imperialbari » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:40 am

Rinsing with water and dish soap will neither remove nor neutralize the Brasso. That takes a not too heavy petroleum based agent. And you have to wipe with lint free cloths soked on tha agrnt until the last cloth stops getting dirty.

As the porous surface has been cleaned out, you have to oil generously with avthin petrleum based oil to re-soak the surface with oil. If not done so, the friction surfaces will dry out immediately.

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Last edited by imperialbari on Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:42 am

imperialbari wrote:Rinsing with water and dish soap will neither remove nor neutralize the Brasso. That takes a not too heavy petroleum based agent. And you have to wipe with lint free cloths soked on tha agrnt until the last cloth stops getting dirty.

Klaus


Lighter fluid, as per my post...

balchb wrote:I used Brasso in the valve casings after giving the horn a bath in the tub with dish soap, then dissipated the brasso with the lighter fluid on a paper towel and fully wiped out and re-rinsed in the tub. I heard that this is the only way to make sure the brasso won't continue reacting after you put the horn back together.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby Mark Finley » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:11 pm

if your right hand starts to get green, you could always make a wrap.

viewtopic.php?t=63732&p=528358


as far as the valves go, many of these chinese tubas need TLC after purchase. It's great if wessex will do it for you, but for the cost of shipping a tuba both ways, you would think it would be easier for them to pay you back for getting it done locally.

Or, just do it before the tuba ships out in the first place
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby bort » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:16 pm

balchb wrote:[photo]


Looks like a lacquered dining room table to me. Oh wait, there's the tuba. :)

The problem could be a number of things, and it might not even be dirt. Get it to a good shop and make arrangements with Wessex to take care of that. The shop can make sure everything is also straight, aligned, and that the linkage is properly adjusted. Not sure what kind of linkages those tubas have, but a lot of the adjustable linkages have screws that can be overtightened and slow things down.

Good luck, let us know what the resolution is!
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:36 pm

I'm just over an hour from Spring Lake, MI, so no biggie on shipping.

I'll keep the wrap idea in mind if it starts to stain my clothes/tux.

The valve was still hung up before assembling the linkage components, so definitely something internal - alignment, etc.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby bububassboner » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:23 pm

Those newer Miraphone copies now have the adjustable screws in the rotor caps. If you put the caps on in a different order they may be too tight and cause the rotor to slow down. Just another simple thing to check.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby Wyvern » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:37 pm

58mark wrote:as far as the valves go, many of these chinese tubas need TLC after purchase. It's great if wessex will do it for you, but for the cost of shipping a tuba both ways, you would think it would be easier for them to pay you back for getting it done locally.

This is actually a very rare problem on a Wessex, so I would like us to check out the cause to ensure does not happen again. Part of our continuous quality improvements. Any issue found will be raised during my next visit to the factory (January), when we will be checking another batch before accepting and shipping.

bububassboner wrote:Those newer Miraphone copies now have the adjustable screws in the rotor caps. If you put the caps on in a different order they may be too tight and cause the rotor to slow down. Just another simple thing to check.

I believe that tuba is so fitted.
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Re: Wessex CC "Mahler" valves sticky

Postby balchb » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:33 pm

No screws on the caps, I haven't changed the order of anything. The pic shows plastic cups labeled with the valve numbers to avoid such a problem.
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