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This may not be the appropriate place to discuss this, but I feel VERY strongly that this kind of "initiation" is never appropriate. It promotes all the wrong kind of heirarchal (sp?) mindsets, and puts those who don't want to participate in an extremely awkward situation. (And those who feel that way have EVERY right to, and might have any number of reasons for feeling that way, and shouldn't be demeaned for it.)

Any band director who knows about this kind of thing and doesn't do anything is not only being stupid and negligent, but is opening himself/herself up to potential legal liability.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this opinion, but I'm still right.

Uncle Buck wrote:This may not be the appropriate place to discuss this, but I feel VERY strongly that this kind of "initiation" is never appropriate. It promotes all the wrong kind of heirarchal (sp?) mindsets, and puts those who don't want to participate in an extremely awkward situation. (And those who feel that way have EVERY right to, and might have any number of reasons for feeling that way, and shouldn't be demeaned for it.)

Any band director who knows about this kind of thing and doesn't do anything is not only being stupid and negligent, but is opening himself/herself up to potential legal liability.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this opinion, but I'm still right.

I agree. I am not familiar with this kind of behavior from a band, especially high school. I've seen it with clubs like varsity club, which I participated in only to get that coveted letter jacket (like it does a lot of good for me now). I know as a soon-to-be music educator that this kind of thing could mean big trouble to me if something goes wrong or someone gets hurt.

I remember the good old days of going to band to get away from it all, to have fun, make music, and just play the tuba.

I could give a nice log post about bands in high school but will save it for maybe another day.

-heads

My band doesn't really have anything like this, and I don't really think it could lead to any good... a good chunk of the football team of another school in the area were arrested for an initiation ceremony that in any other context would constitute sexual harassment, and their parents defended the practice as "tradition" and "boys being boys."

I think anything that keeps band from being a sport like that is a good thing.


And anyway, stupid crap like that is much better if done for no reason at all.

Maybe Sean could add 'kiddie topics' to the site?

Gee, I joined the band partly so I WOULDN'T have to hang around with a bunch of jerks.
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Joe Baker, who wonders how many kids decide to pass on band because of stupid junk like this.

TUBACHRIS85 wrote: Its just to "break" them in. -tubachris

It's unfortunate that this is a "kiddie" topic. Aren't you aware of all the anti-bullying legislation that is going on? Are you guys living in the Dark Ages or something? This is almost certainly illegal.

I'm glad you enjoyed your initiation, but if I had a way of alerting the authorities at your school and in your city, I would do it. This kind of "fun" for unwilling recipients can result in someone's getting shot.

MA, whose only "initiation" was a dousing with champagne after a hot air balloon ride, and who did not return because of that puerile behavior by supposed adults

cowboybob wrote:So you guys are saying that you never did "falling raindrops" or had a stupid freshman section chant when yall were in marching band. ......Some people need to realize there is a differance between a harmless cerimony and serious hazing.

No, we never did any of those things.
And some people need to realize that they can't decide for others where "harmless ceremony" ends and "serious hazing" begins.

cowboybob wrote:So you guys are saying that you never did "falling raindrops" or had a stupid freshman section chant when yall were in marching band. My own opinon is that these kinds of initiatons can provide a valueble feeling of section unity. Some people need to realize there is a differance between a harmless cerimony and serious hazing.

That's what I'm saying.

A ceremony, in which newcomers are welcomed, encouraged, and shown appreciation would be great. But forcing them to humiliate themselves, or pouring junk all over them, is not only stupid but mean. If adults did such things, they'd be sent to jail.

You want to build section unity? Set a goal of being the section that's always got it together -- the one that gets together for sectionals outside of band and works up a three- or four-part stand tune. Get matching t-shirts. Have friday night root-beer-riots where everyone takes turn hosting the section for soft drinks and a movie or card game. Make up a boastful chant extolling the virtue of your group, and then go about living up to it. Have an annual (adult supervised) camping trip or "awards" banquet. Do something that makes everyone feel important, not something that makes some feel like dirt under the others' feet!

There is no word besides 'foolishness' to describe the idea that SOME members of the group mistreating OTHER members of the group -- even in small ways -- will promote unity within the group.
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Joe Baker, who is in no position of superiority, having done many foolish things in his life.

I never did any of that crap to my section mates. We had the low brass nights, we had sectionals where we had little parties at the cofee shop and got in serious trouble for it (harmless stuff, honest), we went to the carwash before every game and cleaned the sousas and then played our section tunes from the back of a pickup while we sat out in front of the dorms and frat houses at 6:45 on a saturday morning.

We never degraded each other by hazing them.

Captain Sousie (ret)

This has got to be the dumbest topic I have seen. What is going on?

Chuck

I have a strong suspicion that there is something funny going on considering the Bobo topic that happened earlier and this one. Someone might have gotten some info pirated or hijacked. I would say something to Sean but I have nothing other than suspicion to go on here. Hazing is however something real that goes on in a lot of sections regardless of instrument.

Not a laughing matter or a 'dumb' topic to anyone involved.

Captain "trying hard to remember that opinions are like..." Sousie

I think that the people that are posting all this legal crap, need to take the sticks out of their butts and lighten the the heck up. I never saw Chris say anything about forcing anyone to do anything. Granted this might not be the forum to post such a question, but your not being forced to read, post, or do anything. Give the kid a break. He only asked to see some other stories like his. LIGHTEN UP!!!!!

Todd

TexTuba wrote:There are just too many things that can go wrong with "harmless fun"

AMEN! Regardless of legality and the lawsuit-happy society, hazing/initiations are only 'fun' to a select few. If you are like me, it is not 'fun' to go through anything like the hazing described earlier and it would have turned me away from tuba playing for a very long time, if not forever.

TubaTodd82 wrote:I think that the people that are posting all this legal crap, need to take the sticks out of their butts and lighten the the heck up...but your not being forced to read, post, or do anything.

Hmmm...irony?

Sou

I was just thinking; this is the cycle of ritual abuse, just like when molested children grow up to be molesters themselves. Could it be, those of you who think the rest of us are humor challenged, that -- having suffered this abuse yourselves -- you are just ready to be the one doing the abusing? To attempt to regain your own dignity by demeaning others? All I can say is, "let it go."

As for having a stick in my nether-regions... this is a DISCUSSION group. If someone wrote in "Hey, any of you guys have any great stories about stompin' [insert despised minority here]?", I suppose you'd say we had a stick up our butts for speaking up against that? You don't bring up a subject for discussion if you don't want it discussed.
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Joe Baker, who wishes that, in addition to name and avatar, we could see the poster's age.

I'm not surprised that you are surprised at the reaction.

What you don't understand is that some kids will participate "out of their own free will" because they figure they will be labled as chicken, or will not be accepted, if they do NOT participate. It IS hazing whether you want to think so or not, so I think you better re-think yet again.

I'm sure your school lawyer will agree with me. If you don't think so, ask him or her. Ask the school counselor; ask the principal.

MA, who absoutely will not get off your back when it needs sitting on

Too bad they don't have the delete option anymore...




Ralph

Uh, I think you have "hazing" confused with "assault" or "torture", or maybe "aggravated kidnapping". What you described, turning people into 'human sundaes' (or however you spelled it), is definitely hazing. Causing bodily harm, or forcing people to participate, would fit one of those other descriptions. Don't believe me? Let's ask the American Heritage Dictionary:

haze
tr.v. hazed, haz·ing, haz·es

1. To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks.
2. To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.

I see nothing about inflicting bodily harm in that definition. I assure you, you are a victim and also a perpetrator of hazing.

As for the degree to which it is voluntary: for not participating, you have written off the former section leader as lazy, not caring about tuba and -- I just LOVED this criticism -- caring about her friends .

Bitch.

Seriously, at 6'6" and 280 pounds, it takes a lot to scare you. I know, I'm 6 foot and 260 pounds, and it takes a lot to scare me. But how about the frail, shy incoming freshman, who doesn't know how far it might go? You'll never know what really good musician you've scared away from your band because they heard they'd have 6'6", 280 pound TubaChris turning them into a human sundae and laughing at them. So why not be a 6'6", 280 pound MAN, instead of a 6'6", 280 pound BOY. Be a leader. Refuse to participate. Stand up AGAINST this stuff. Remember, slavery used to be a tradition too. They said it was for the slaves' own good -- having a master to take care of 'em & all. It took people with a heart, a brain, and a backbone to change that.

What you're doing is wrong. No amount of rationalizing (look THAT up in your Funk & Wagnalls) will change that fact.
_________________________
Joe Baker, who has seen too much bullying in his life, and will stand no more.

Hey! But i think the 1291 is awesome! And.... encounters II is hard! and...pick the mouthpiece that best allows you to make the sound you imagine in your head! Arnold Jacobs was really neat!

Sorry, but I'm used to the Tubenet being time-wasting and tuba-related, not time-wasting and hateful.

I am but a mere bugler, but I feel that this topic is long overdue for an intervening lock on the part of the moderator. Seriously, can't we all just get along?