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I was thinking about an F tuba being used in place of a French horn. If given a French Horn part in Treble Clef, what would be the F tuba fingerings to play that part as written. (Or am I just crazy to even think about doing this)?

This is how I read F instrument music on any tuba:

First, I transpose the key signature to concert pitch. The concert key is a perfect fifth lower than the written key.

Then, I turn the treble clef into a bass clef. For example, a middle C on the treble clef becomes the E underneath the bass staff.

Then read all music a half step up. An E natural, formerly middle C, should be played as an F. This will give you the correct pitch, an octave lower.

Read the part in treble clef using trumpet fingerings. The notes will come out the same as a French horn, but an octave lower.

For example, second space A in a horn part will be fingered 1-2 and will produce concert D at the bottom of the treble staff. That's the fingering for D in the bass staff for an F tuba. Open C in the treble staff for F horn will produce the note a fifth below, a concert F; on the F tuba it produces a 4th-line F in the bass staff, an octave below the horn note.

GC wrote:Read the part in treble clef using trumpet fingerings. The notes will come out the same as a French horn, but an octave lower.

For example, second space A in a horn part will be fingered 1-2 and will produce concert D at the bottom of the treble staff. That's the fingering for D in the bass staff for an F tuba. Open C in the treble staff for F horn will produce the note a fifth below, a concert F; on the F tuba it produces a 4th-line F in the bass staff, an octave below the horn note.

Perfect! Exactly what I was hoping.

Thank You

GC wrote:For example, second space A in a horn part will be fingered 1-2 and will produce concert D at the bottom of the treble staff. That's the fingering for D in the bass staff for an F tuba. Open C in the treble staff for F horn will produce the note a fifth below, a concert F; on the F tuba it produces a 4th-line F in the bass staff, an octave below the horn note.

I don't understand why the F tuba would sound an octave lower. Is not an F horn and F tuba the same length of tubing - around 13 foot?

Yes, but the French horn uses a tiny mouthpiece to force the player an octave higher in the harmonic series. That's why the French horn has an open first-line E and the trumpet does not. Horn players who have a really good low range can get all the low notes that an F tuba does.

What would be the second harmonic F for an F tuba (where the open tones start the F-C-F-A-C-F sequence) on a French horn actually starts with the written C an octave below middle C, starting the C-G-C-E-G-C sequence. The first harmonic for F tuba is the pedal F on the fourth ledger line below the bass staff. That same note written for French horn would be two octaves below middle c, or the C two ledger lines below the bass staff (or the C eight ledger lines below the treble staff). Not that many horn players can get down there.

Fit a French horn with a tuba sized mouthpiece, and playing that low would work. It would probably sound awful, though.

Read like treble-clef Baritone/trumpet sounding an octave down from horn... unless you're feeling heroic (which I've heard, but prefer 8vb).

J.c.S.

Jonathan, trumpet fingerings and horn fingerings in that written range are an octave apart. You could use horn fingerings, and play it at the octave originally sounding, but the sound wouldn't be very appealing *AS DONE BY MOST PLAYERS, AT LEAST*, and endurance, again for most of us, would be problematic.

For what it's worth.... I use F tuba fingerings on my chromatic Alphorn... which employs an F Horn valve section. However... it's most convenient for me to use a trombone mouthpiece to do it since I am not an F Horn player.

This sort of agrees with what 'GC' said.

I just finished playing part of a concert as an F tuba playing the French horn parts and part playing the tuba parts on an Eb. (I used a mini tuba that can be either an F or Eb. ). It was interesting and fun. Playing the up beats is confusing. They now want me to play more F parts because we have another tuba but no horn player.

opus37 wrote:I just finished playing part of a concert as an F tuba playing the French horn parts and part playing the tuba parts on an Eb. (I used a mini tuba that can be either an F or Eb. ). It was interesting and fun. Playing the up beats is confusing. They now want me to play more F parts because we have another tuba but no horn player.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but...covering horn parts on a tuba isn't a situation that I would allow to become a normal and accepted practice in any ensemble.

In an emergency, fine. Otherwise, in the absence of a horn player, a trumpet/cornet player should be expected to play the parts on an actual French horn, alto horn, or mellophone.

WC8KCY wrote:In an emergency, fine. Otherwise, in the absence of a horn player, a trumpet/cornet player should be expected to play the parts on an actual French horn, alto horn, or mellophone.

I agree that this would be preferable. I have been playing in this group for 2 years with 2 tubas and a bunch of trumpets. No one has stepped up to play the horn part. With 2 tubas and a 25 piece group, 1 tuba can handle it. The french horn part adds some dimension to the music so I decided to try. It worked out very well, it even sounded pretty good. So, for this group and similar situations where the horn part is missing and there are extra tubas and no one else steps up, it is an option (if you have and F tuba).

Neptune wrote:

GC wrote:For example, second space A in a horn part will be fingered 1-2 and will produce concert D at the bottom of the treble staff. That's the fingering for D in the bass staff for an F tuba. Open C in the treble staff for F horn will produce the note a fifth below, a concert F; on the F tuba it produces a 4th-line F in the bass staff, an octave below the horn note.

I don't understand why the F tuba would sound an octave lower. Is not an F horn and F tuba the same length of tubing - around 13 foot?

It's like brass band where all the valved instruments play the same fingerings. The Eb tenor horns are about 6.5' and their middle C sounds 1st line Eb.

Written middle C for the horn sounds 1st space F but with an appx. 13' instrument, they should be playing bass clef F. They are actually transposing up an octave. Like much of music, it doesn't make sense so have a few beers and go on with life.

Jonathan, if F tubas were written in transposing treble clef (sounding a major second above the brass band Eb tuba) and the F horn were, actually is, written in treble clef sounding a major second about the brass bands Eb tenor horn, then the F tuba would play its 2nd partial when seeing C one ledger line below the treble staff. The F horn seeing the same note would play its 4th partial.

The purpose of letting the natural horn read its 5th through 11th partial from within the treble staff was to write most of its melodic range without ledger lines. F tubas and F horns have the same partials, only the tuba in general moves within a lower set of partials than does the horn.

Klaus

J.c. Sherman wrote:Read like treble-clef Baritone/trumpet sounding an octave down from horn... unless you're feeling heroic (which I've heard, but prefer 8vb).

J.c.S.

+++++++

It kinda works if you play a treble clef F part as bass clef on CC tuba using BBb fingerings. For instance, a middle c on a french horn part sounds an F. First valve on CC is F and its in the spot for Eb. I think this works.... Right?

GC wrote:Read the part in treble clef using trumpet fingerings. The notes will come out the same as a French horn, but an octave lower.

That's all there really is to it.

MartyNeilan wrote:

GC wrote:Read the part in treble clef using trumpet fingerings. The notes will come out the same as a French horn, but an octave lower.

That's all there really is to it.

Concur, having played both tuba and one semester of french horn in college (just to see what it was all about, before running and screaming back to the trenches as quick as I could).