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Sorry, couldn't resist that subject line. I've got a serious question though...


I need to play a FF pedal E, but somehow this seems impossible . It feels very stuffy and I can't center it. 1+2+3 is very stuffy, 2+4 is better but not quite. It get's a little better with the 2nd valve slide pulled. Are there any other strategies????

Btw, I use a Miraphone C4....

bloke wrote:

It get's a little better with the 2nd valve slide pulled. Are there any other strategies????

nope

I was allready afraid that awnser would be the only awnser....... (btw, I can blast that note on trombone....)

If you have the time and inclination, on some horns you can pull the fourth valve slide(s) enough to get the eqivalent of a 1-2-3 combination. Peope do, and adjust fingerings accordingly. First, try it. If it works, then...

Wilco wrote:(btw, I can blast that note on trombone....)

Trombones use fast air. Tubas use slow air, and much more of it. There's no easy way--you just have to practice until it comes to you. Also, trombones playing a note like that sound like a hammer on a frying pan, while tuba notes have to have substance to go with the edge.

Think of letting the air fall out of you, rather than blowing it. Anything that gets in the way of it falling out of you, move. It could be your tongue, your teeth, or the tension in your body keeping it from happening. Air will only fall if you are tanked up to full, by the way. If you are pushing the air, it won't work.

Some instruments don't play the note in tune. Try it with 2-4 and let the note settle where it wants to. It will be sharp. Then pull your second or (better) fourth slide to tune it. Trying to blow the note at a different frequency than what resonates in the instrument will make it stuffy for sure.

Rick "who finds this note easy on a Miraphone compared to the Holton" Denney

i wish ,, the shift key ,, on ,, my ,, keyboard ,, worked...

Wilco wrote:Sorry, couldn't resist that subject line. I've got a serious question though...


I need to play a FF pedal E, but somehow this seems impossible . It feels very stuffy and I can't center it. 1+2+3 is very stuffy, 2+4 is better but not quite. It get's a little better with the 2nd valve slide pulled. Are there any other strategies????

Btw, I use a Miraphone C4....

First, let's make sure we're talking about the same note. Given that the "pedal range" (i.e., fundamental range) of a BBb tuba starts on the Bb an octave + a 6th below the bass clef staff (last black key on an 88-key piano) and goes down from there, a "pedal E" would be a 4th off the end of the keyboard (2 octaves + a 3rd below the bass staff -- frequency ca. 20 Hz). To get that note to sound at all (let alone at FF) may require a mouthpiece with a larger inner diameter ... and you may still need to "one-lip it" to get it to come out. If you're talking about the E an octave above that one, see the previous posts ...

Hope this helps!

dtemp wrote:i wish ,, the shift key ,, on ,, my ,, keyboard ,, worked...

don't sweat it ,, shift happens

iibagod wrote:ok maybe I've been using different terminology....

What constitutes a "Pedal" note? In relation to tuba range I mean...I know I'm playing Pedal Bb two octaves below the staff (the fundamental of the horn)...but when do we stop calling it pedal? When would we label it "double pedal"? I know there are probably better ways to say it but most people stare right through me unless I use terms like that.
So where does pedal start? when would 'double pedal' begin? Should I just shut my mouth and say 'really really low G'? Am I just deluding myself and is the pedal range 3 Bbs below the staff? Am I cursed to play 'normal' notes forever?

A "pedal note" is the lowest note you can play for any given valve combination (i.e., the "fundamental" of that harmonic series). As such, what constitutes a pedal note varies (somewhat) depending on whether you're playing a BBb, CC, Eb, or F tuba (or a Bb or C euph, or a trumpet, etc.). Anything from the last Bb on a standard piano keyboard down (one-and-a-half octaves below the staff) is a pedal note on any of the 4 pitches of tuba. The C & B above that are pedals on a CC, Eb and F. The Eb, D, and Db above those are pedals on an Eb and F. The F and E above those are pedals on an F tuba. As to "double pedal", if I understand it correctly, that would require enough valves to double (or more than double) the "open bugle" length of the instrument ... generally 5 or more valves (assuming the 5th valve is set up as a double-whole-step or more). For a 5- or 6-valve CC tuba, for example, the "double-pedal C" is the 16 Hz C a major 6th off the left end of the piano keyboard, 2-and-a-half octaves below the bass clef staff. I don't know of many pieces that go that low (the Kraft Encounters II is one of them ... anybody know of any others?). Again, "double-pedal" is instrument-pitch-dependant, just as "pedal" is ...

Hope this helps!

iibagod wrote:What constitutes a "Pedal" note?

I just posted about this in another thread.

The term "pedal" comes from organ terminology. In the organ world, a pedal note is a note played using the foot pedals. Thus, any use of that term for tubas is a contrivance that will mean whatever people think it means.

Lots of people seem to use the term "pedal" in reference to any note below the fourth-valve second partial (low F on a BBb tuba). Many others insist that it can only mean notes that start at the open fundamental and go down from there. Of course, the true fundamental on a BBb tuba may be the BBb or it may be the Eb above it, depending on who you ask. Both can be played on what seems to be the "first partial."

I usually use that term to describe a note played an octave under where it is written, where that low note is played for the effect of something really low sounding. Thus, when I dropped the final Eb of Elsa's Procession down an octave in our last program, I was intending to produce the same effect produced by the organist's left foot. The conductor (a professional tuba player, by the way), referred to it as a pedal when he told me where it did (and didn't) want it. And since I played it as a false tone, I suppose it was a fundamental. But my definition stems from the musical purpose of pedal notes on an organ. That usage seems to match what most folks think, and I think it makes the most sense given what the term actually means where it is properly used.

As I said elsewhere, one has to determine the meaning of poorly defined terms like this using the context. Everyone knows that nothing in literature requires a tuba player to play the E off the left end of the piano keyboard at FF.

Rick "who thinks one can only demand technical precision from meaningfully defined technial jargon, which this isn't" Denney

Interesting ... thanks, Rick, for the clarification! Much appreciated.

Kevin Hendrick wrote:don't sweat it ,, shift happens

I thought that was the astronomer's dictum...

jlbreyer wrote:

Kevin Hendrick wrote:don't sweat it ,, shift happens

I thought that was the astronomer's dictum...

Think I "red" that somewhere too ...

If you want to get picky, the fundamental is the Eb below the pedall Bb0. i.e., it'd be Eb0. The so-called "false tone" Eb1 is actually an octave above this. The "pedal Bb" (Bb0) actually is not part of the harmonic series of a BBb tuba, which probably explains why there is almost no Bb0 energy in it; i.e., it's more of a "resultant" tone that simply sounds like it's very low.

Thank you all for the tips, they are very helpfull. De 'pedal' E is a little better now. I noticed that dropping the jaw gave me a better sound overall.... Duh of course, but it's nice to keep working a the basics. It makes everything else easyer.

Btw, we trombonists at the OTJ have discussed pedals ad infinitum. Whether there are double and even tripple pedals (that would be the double pedal on tuba, 16vb low BBb). Interesting stuff, but not very interesting for musical use. Playing pedals OTH is very relaxing for the chops....