TubeNet

I have been away from the tuba world for a while, and since returning, have discovered that the Chinese are cloning tubas (along with just about everything else they can get their hands on). According to what I have read here, the quality of these cloned instruments is very good, although some (or most) seem to require some small tweaks by the distributor before the instrument is delivered to the end user (maybe this is the same with European made instruments, I don't know).

The philosophical issue I have with this entire process is the effect this could (or will) have on the manufacturers of the instruments being cloned. A lot of money is being spent to design new models of instruments, a costly and time consuming enterprise. These costs necessarily will be passed on to the buyer of a name brand instrument. Once a particular instrument becomes popular, the cloners swoop in and make knock offs at a fraction of the original's costs. It seems to me that this has to affect the original manufacturers in a very negative way.

Will we see a day when the top instrument manufacturers stop trying to improve their products (or worse yet, close up shop) because they will refuse to spend the money on R&D, only to see another country steal their ideas? I hope not.

I imagine that I am a lone voice in this arena. I have no ax to grind with the US distributors that are doing their best to make a living in the tuba/brass world, which is difficult at best. It seems as if cloning is here to stay, and these instruments seem to fill a demand, so for many, it is a win-win situation.

As for myself, I don't think I will be rushing out to buy a cloned tuba any time soon. If possible, I will spend more and get the genuine article, and reward the manufacturer that put in their blood, sweat, and tears (and $$) into its development.

I am now officially off my soapbox, but am interested in others opinions.

My thoughts are not so philosophical. I tried to find a Conn or a King, etc., that I could afford as a hobby player. I ended up with a 3/4 sized BBb Jupiter in pretty good shape with a decent hard case for under 1K. Its is sufficient for my needs. Someday, maybe ...........

If they don't know what they are getting when they purchase it, they will soon after the purchase. Nothing new. I did the same thing with a car purchase, no.......... two of them.

I have no issue with clones whatsoever. Would I rather have something made in Europe? Yes. I won't spend that kind of money at this point in my life. Music is a hobby for me now and I don't make my living doing it. I can appreciate where some would steer clear of clones but I don't fault anyone that wants one. I just recently purchased one from Mack Brass and am very happy with it. I remember similar attitude about Yamaha instruments years ago. People with the need and the resources will buy the better horns. For me, the choice was buying a clone or not owning a horn again. There were some other choices out there such as recording bell American made horns but I wanted something different. Let the market decide.

I've written about it here several times before, and have largely been met by disagreement from others who just want the best playing tuba from any country at any price. That's a personal choice, and I will not spend my money to support the cloning. Heck, I try as hard as I can to buy non-Chinese products of any kind.

I don't like that the manufacturer doesn't have any interest in selling tubas directly, and goes through importer/exporters who stamp their names on them. Yes, there are slight differences and adjustments in some cases, but largely, it's the same thing with a different name. "This is one of the good ones."

It reminds me of this:


I know there are some other brands like Eastman now, that are actually brands of instruments, based in China and made in China. Although I still don't love the cloning, I like the business model a whole lot better.

(Not to mention the quasi-capitalist communist Chinese... generally a lot of good things and good people there, but a LOT of problems and on a huge scale.)

bloke wrote:I don't consider the German "licensed" B&H "clones" to be "genuine articles"...just because they own names created by a shuttered manufacturer on Edgware St. in London...and neither do I find the German "clones" of Nirschl CC tubas to be quite the same as "genuine" Nirschl CC tubas. ...and neither do I consider Yamaha (for several decades, now) "clones" of English-made instruments to be Besson/B&H...and neither do I consider the old (old-old) Miraphone 181 F tuba (obvious reference of the B&S PT-10) to be the genuine article. ...and neither do I consider (old-old) B&S "clones" of Alexander BBb tubas to be genuine articles either.

I strongly suspect that just about the same number (or, more likely, more-than-ever..??) as always (due to price-points) are buying high-end European-made instruments, and (obviously) a whole bunch more people (who would have otherwise bought whatever they could find "used") are buying Chinese instruments - particularly the lower-end ones.

Most of American tuba/euphonium production is shuttered, and that which isn't is either "ultra-tried-and-true" or (again) somewhat patterned after European/English designs. Brazil and Taiwan also make "clones" (including some very high-end "clones" of old 6/4 Michigan designs), but we're not hearing much about Japanese, Brazilian, or Taiwanese (or, again, USA west coast) "clones".

Everyone who buys (surely) knows what they're getting.

You have probably forgotten more about this topic than I will ever know, so I defer to your expertise.

However, one thing that seems different to me, regarding some of the manufacturers you mention, is that they seem to have taken an original design from someone else (who may or may not be in business any longer), but then have worked on their own to come up with new ideas and/or improvements, all of which requires extensive R&D.

As for the USA West Coast clones, I assume you mean the York style copies, which I put into a different category as well. York, to my knowledge, is no longer making tubas. If you cannot buy an instrument from the original manufacturer, then one has no choice but to buy from someone that offers an instrument of a similar design, whether it is Holton, Hirsbrunner, Nirschl, Yamaha, Gronitz, or Kanstul (or others). And correct me if I'm wrong, but none of these tubas are considered exact copies of the CSO York(s) anymore, are they? They may have started out as such, but seem to have been modified based on current musicians actual playing experiences and feedback.

The aspect of all of this I don't particularly care for is someone (from any country, I used the Chinese as an example only) making knock offs of existing instrument models, thereby circumventing the costs of actually developing the instrument, and being able to sell them at a price that could, in the end, significantly affect the ability of the original manufacturer to stay in business. At a minimum, it seems as though the original manufacturers prices may need to go up to account for lost sales due to cloning.

Davidus1 wrote:I have no issue with clones whatsoever. Would I rather have something made in Europe? Yes. I won't spend that kind of money at this point in my life. Music is a hobby for me now and I don't make my living doing it. I can appreciate where some would steer clear of clones but I don't fault anyone that wants one. I just recently purchased one from Mack Brass and am very happy with it. I remember similar attitude about Yamaha instruments years ago. People with the need and the resources will buy the better horns. For me, the choice was buying a clone or not owning a horn again. There were some other choices out there such as recording bell American made horns but I wanted something different. Let the market decide.

I am very happy for you, and am glad that these instruments are available for someone like yourself who would not be able to own a tuba if the clones were not available.

As for your comment, "People with the need and the resources will buy the better horns." I hope you are correct. My fear is that we will end up killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, so to speak.

My approach to purchasing ANY instrument is pretty simple: does it make the sound I am looking for? If it does, then that's the instrument I buy. No matter what name is stamped on the bell. Since we are involved in an aural art, for me, the sound is the thing. Pistons, rotors, silver, gold brass, it's all about the sound. Of course this assumes that the low register blows open and free and there are no GLARING intonation issues.

There are certain mechanical issues I need to consider, like do the slides move smoothly, and do the valves move firmly and solidly. And will the horn hold up to the rigors of lashing it too the back of the Harley and getting man-handled down into the pit and back. My experience has shown (for ME) that the builders who make instruments more affordable TEND to take shortcuts in materials and workmanship. There are builders who's instruments have stood the test of time for my needs.

Having said that, I have NOT had the opportunity to play the current influx of new clones to the scene. So it is ENTIRELY possible that I am a bit out of step with the times.

Clones or non-clones produced by 'non-traditional' (read not U.S., European or Japanese) manufacturers are fine if that's what you can afford, but you must have an accurate picture about what you are buying. I do think that clone value for the money is indeed over-exaggerated by dealers, clone owners (who may want to rationalize their purchase by extolling its virtues; something I've also experienced with car brand loyalists) and others (Tubenet posters) who are just chiming in. In my experience, they are worth their price. No more, no less.

I've owned two Chinese-manufactured instruments: a Dillon 3+1 euphonium (actual manufacturer unknown; later sold through Dillon on consignment for a better than expected price) and I currently own a Mack Brass (JinBao) TU200.

The Dillon euph had a nice sound with accurate intonation. The horn was straight (construction-wise), fit was generally good and the finish was just acceptable (I needed two hands to count the number of blemishes on my fingers). It was worth what I paid for it - no more, no less.

I decided to buy the Mack TU200 based largely on ergonomic reasons as I need a tuba with a long (tall) distance between the mouthpiece receiver and bell to alleviate issues associated with a hearing disorder. Rotary valves also help with hand dexterity issues. I knew going in that claims about the horn were likely (at least somewhat) exaggerated and that the quality of construction could be less than stellar. The horn has worked out quite well ergonomically (priority 1) and I do love the sound of the thing (priority 1.5). Intonation is decent for a player who is also a very good listener (nowhere near point and shoot). The low range is fine, but not the best thing since sliced bread as I've read repeatedly. The horn is straight and fit (tubing/joint-wise) is excellent. The finish leaves a lot to be desired (i.e., I need more than two hands to count the blemishes). But... I'm decidedly **not** disappointed as my ergonomic priorities were met (if not, I would have to hang up my mouthpiece), the horn plays well and I fully expected the finish to be iffy based on past experience. I plan on playing the lacquer off the thing anyway, so I really don't care. In the end, I received what I paid for - no more, no less. Someday, I may splurge for a new 'real thing' if I have the money in place. Or I may just play this one if I'm still happy with it and it suits my needs.

In my experience, clones (and their brethren) have worked out well - within my **realistic** expectations.

I really don't understand the brand/country loyalty point of view* (i.e., consumer chauvinism). I've had American, Chinese, Japanese, German and other products that were great, good, o.k. and many that were junk. The worst car (in truth, the worst consumer product) that I've purchased was made in Germany. I also owned a car produced in Brazil and another made in Pennsylvania by that same company and they were terrific. One other best was made in Korea. One of my other interests is stereo headphone amplifiers/electronics and Chinese manufacturers produce some of the best stuff out there (definitely high-end on the cheap) - much of it far undervalued in my opinion. SONY product quality is nowhere near what it used to be. Koss produces (in China, I believe) a $15 (sometimes on sale for as low as $5) headphone that blows the socks off just about anything else (my ears; YMMV). You couldn't pay me to listen to music using expensive 'Beats' headphones.

*with the exception of working conditions, which is an important issue for many Chinese as well as American workers (go read some horror stories about workers in Amazon warehouses in the U.S. and Chinese companies that manufacture products for Apple and other companies/distributors). The fully-aware and ethical consumer would research these issues in advance. Admittedly, I'm not quite there yet...

I don't blindly buy things from one country over another, but I do avoid some countries altogether and I do avoid others as much as possible. That is, I wouldn't buy something only because it's made in a certain country, but I would decide to NOT buy something based on where it's made. That's my freedom as a consumer.

For example, I won't buy clothing made in Bangladesh, and that's pretty easy to avoid. But when it comes time to buying a TV, it's hard to avoid buying one made in China. That's just the way of the world now.

Cars... many manufacturers built factories in other countries, so the country of assembly isn't the home country for the company. There are BMW plants in the US, Kia plants in the US, etc. Just cheaper to build them locally. My BMW was built in Germany though. I think it depends on the model.

Just remember, whichever county your product is built in, when you give that company your money, you are supporting that company, its country, and its business practices. I'd rather have my money at home or with friendly countries than places I don't want to support.

bort wrote: Just remember, whichever county your product is built in, when you give that company your money, you are supporting that company, its country, and its business practices.

Very true.

E.g., Apple Computer:
https://stallman.org/apple.html" target="_blank

and Amazon:
https://stallman.org/amazon.html" target="_blank

and to be fair, what's wrong in the second picture from the top?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=62162&p=517191&hili ... ry#p517191" target="_blank

bighonkintuba wrote:

bort wrote: Just remember, whichever county your product is built in, when you give that company your money, you are supporting that company, its country, and its business practices.

Very true.

E.g., Apple Computer:
https://stallman.org/apple.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

and Amazon:
https://stallman.org/amazon.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

and to be fair, what's wrong in the second picture from the top?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=62162&p=517191&hili ... ry#p517191" target="_blank" target="_blank

Have you ever met Richard Stallman? He seems to be a couple beers short of a six pack.

bort wrote:...
Cars... many manufacturers built factories in other countries, so the country of assembly isn't the home country for the company. There are BMW plants in the US, Kia plants in the US, etc. Just cheaper to build them locally. My BMW was built in Germany though. I think it depends on the model.

There are BMWs built in China.
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/0_0_www_bmwgr ... nyang.html" target="_blank

I would bet that every single one of the devices being used to read this thread was made in China.

cjk wrote:I would bet that every single one of the devices being used to read this thread was made in China.

+1.....
Mark

cjk wrote:Have you ever met Richard Stallman? He seems to be a couple beers short of a six pack.

Yes. He's not perfect (and is goofy in a sometimes charming, sometimes obnoxious way), but he knows his business, does his research and calls out corporate, environmental and social injustice when he observes it.

He is also the founder of a movement dedicated to the preservation of important intellectual and consumer freedoms.

More here:
https://fsf.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank
https://www.gnu.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank
https://www.defectivebydesign.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank
https://h-node.org/home/index/en" target="_blank" target="_blank

Some years ago, my old friend Sam Gnagey and I sailed from Sandusky over to Put-in-Bay on his O'Day 28 sailboat. It was a time of the year when there were very few people on the island. As we had a couple of beers, two guys in $500. foul weather gear (it was a beautiful night) burst into the bar announced to everyone (Sam, me, and the bartender) that they had just sailed from Detroit. Also that they were doctors. They were only too glad to share that they owned (a blah blah blah 45- both boats were in the ½ million dollar range). When they asked Sam what he was sailing, they announced that they wouldn't be caught dead sailing in Lake Erie on a boat smaller than 40 feet.
I get that some of you have $10k available to buy a Miraphone or whatever, and I certainly understand the people who do this for a living and really need the very best. I just remember spending some years watching Harvey play like an angel on an old leaky Conn.
In my garage I have a Mustang with a six-cylinder 307 HP engine that gets 30 mpg on the high, comes with a six year warranty, and is safer than any car made 15 years ago. For $19k. If Hyundai was not down I-85 one way, and Kia not up I-85 the other way, do you think Ford would have been pushed to make such an outstanding product? Competition is what drives capitalism.

What was the difference between a $500k boat and Sam's boat? He could actually afford to sail a 20 year boat.
What's the difference between a Wessex and a Miraphone? For me, one is completely out of reach, and the other I got for Christmas.

dapperpoet wrote: What's the difference between a Wessex and a Miraphone? For me, one is completely out of reach, and the other I got for Christmas.

Bingo! (though I got mine for Valentine's Day)

Somebody always pays the price, there's no such thing as "something for nothing".

Buying a "cheap" knock-off means you may pay the price in lack of quality, or the worker pays the price in low wages, or a master builder pays the price in less business...so on, so forth...whether a tuba, a t-shirt, a steak.

"Let the market decide" someone wrote. We are the market, we choose, we decide!

I'm interested to know how my not being able to afford a tuba makes life better for Franz in the Black Forest or Bobby in Elkhart.