Design of Beginner Model Tubas

[Three Valves]

Forget everything I just said.

[MartyNeilan]

Long story short:

I don't understand why so many small bore, three valve "beginner" tubas are so tall, with their leadpipe so high!

[MaryAnn]

I'm about the size of your average 12 year old today. When I wanted to buy an F tuba, my first choice to try was the 621, which of course has front pistons. I paid a pretty good sum of money to have it and a Weril CC sent to me, and found out in the first ten seconds that front pistons were ergonomically impossible. To the point of pain because of the required impossible angle of my wrist, plus not being able to reach the 4th one anyway.

SO....do not get front piston tubas for small people. I also in my euph search, bought a gorgeous, gold-washed-bell Conn short stroke front valve baritone, and had the exact same problem of impossible ergonomics.

I ended up with rotary tubas (easy to reach, no problem with the paddles whatsoever) and a compensating Sterling euph, which I can also reach just fine. I also had a rotary bariton at one point, whose ergonomics were perfect, but the thing was so radically out of tune with itself that it also found a new home.

So teachers.....look at how those tubas you're talking about *fit* the little people. Just because you can reach front pistons does not mean they can. Kids don't know the difference but you can see what crazy angles they have to use to even get their fingers on the buttons.

[Donn]

Also top action makes more sense because most students transition from euphonium or trumpet where it is top action.

That has to be the weak argument of the week. Many baritoneums are front action, piston trumpets are arguably as close to front action as anything, morphologically speaking (inasmuch as the bell goes to the left of the valves), but even if we accept the premise ... what hope is there, for a music student who is unable to find the valves because they've been moved to the front? If they're really that inflexible, better get them to a front valve system right away, so they'll be able to play sousaphone.

I'm ambivalent, personally - I've read the story about fragile top valve design, but yesterday in one evening my valve stems collided with two door frames. I suppose the right question in the present discussion would be, which is the least awkward for a smaller person. [edit] ... which question Mary Ann seems to have answered while I was posing it.

As for number of valves ... I don't know, but I have a hunch 58mark's students are in a very fortunate position relative to the average band student experience.

[toobagrowl]

Bottom line, the longer a student plays a 3 valve horn, the harder it is to get them to use a 4th valve when they eventually get one. Also, as a teacher, the sooner I can get a kid playing lip slurs, Remington, and long tones from below low E down toward the fundamental, the better off they are going to be

How many of those tuba students will go on after high school to study tuba/music?

Long story short:

I don't understand why so many small bore, three valve "beginner" tubas are so tall, with their leadpipe so high!

Examples?

As for number of valves ... I don't know, but I have a hunch 58mark's students are in a very fortunate position relative to the average band student experience.

Yep. His students also play (expensive) Yamaha 411 sousas, which are more commonly seen at colleges.

[bort]

"most"

not around here. Tuba players start on tubas.

Is this just semantics? (As in, you weren't a tuba player before you played the tuba?)

That's cool if TX kids get to start out on tuba. But in a lot of places (and I'd agree with "most"), it's not an option. In 4th grade, we could pick from: flute, clarinet, alto sax, trumpet, trombone, violin, percussion. I actually wanted to pay tuba from the beginning, but it wasn't an option. It took me until 9th grade to make an opportunity for myself, and haven't looked back since.

[toobagrowl]

Back when I was in middle school, we HAD to start out on some OTHER (smaller) brass instrument and learn a few bare basics BEFORE we got to play tuba/sousaphone.
I actually started out on percussion in the 6th grade, then switched to trombone in the 7th grade, and finally tuba/sousaphone roughly halfway thru 7th grade. My band director said: "You can switch over to tuba after you memorize the parade music on trombone".

I took lessons over the summer on trombone between 6th and 7th grade to "catch up" with the other t-bones for 7th grade. At that time, the band director started asking ppl who were interesting in playing tuba (& sousa). One of the t-bone players switched over, and I loved the deep, rich sound that I heard and knew THAT is what I finally wanted to play. My mom told me: "This is the LAST time you are switching instruments"
The rest is history

[Donn]

My job is to teach them how to be the best players they can be at whatever level they are at right now.

For what it's worth, that's what I mean about these kids' good luck, is the instruction they're getting, that apparently goes considerably beyond getting them through this year's band book.

My mom told me: "This is the LAST time you are switching instruments"

Don't believe it, there's still time to switch to accordion.

[toobagrowl]

Don't believe it, there's still time to switch to accordion.

LOL Do you play accordion?

Btw, I still have my old t-bone from middle school. Still kinda remember the slide positions and can get a decent sound out of it if I practice it a couple days or so....
I've toyed with the idea of getting a better t-bone with an F trigger, but that costs money that I don't have...

Tuba & sousa will always be my main instruments though

[Donn]

Do you play accordion?

Sure! There's still time to get in, you can still find good quality old accordions for a bargain price that still have a few years left. There's a bit of a comeback in progress, so you have to look sharper, but big plus if you can manage something in the 30 lb range - not everyone can deal with that. The tuba afficionado with a lot of money who likes Austrian/Slovenian/Bavarian etc. music might look into the Steirische harmonika, which has "helicon bass" reeds on the left side that sound like little tubas. They're really pretty awesome, if you like that kind of thing. Not to get off topic or anything.

[bort]

Do you play accordion?

The tuba afficionado with a lot of money who likes Austrian/Slovenian/Bavarian etc. music might look into the Steirische harmonika, which has "helicon bass" reeds on the left side that sound like little tubas. They're really pretty awesome, if you like that kind of thing.

They are VERY cool. I stumbled upon videos of Herbert Pixner on YouTube about a year ago, and was totally impressed. Looks extremely difficult, but it's a cool sound (yes, even for an accordion!) and the tunes are fun. Actually, seems like a lot of the tunes would translate well to brass ensembles.

Um... that could possibly be played with beginner tubas?? Trying to stay on-topic...

[imperialbari]

Jan Viggo Thuve Øwre 8 år.jpg

From the colours of hair and eyes this could have been me almost sixty years ago, but it is our Norwegian TubeNet member Jan Viggo with his first tuba, the small 700-series Besson Eb. JV had the good fortune that his father is a bandmaster who understood the right way to start out his young son.

That little Eb tuba has an in-body main tuning slide, but the same main frame also came with an in-leadpipe tuning slide. Brand names also had been Besson Westminster/Oxford and B&H Regent.

A sample of the Westminster-tuning-in-body variant on loan to my very poor youth band was a very great boost for us. The sound and scale mostly is great even with a fairly large mouthpiece like the DW1. We had to secure the main tuning slide with a string due to a long pull. And this model has a way too short 3rd slide, as it was cut not by tuning parameters, but so that it would fit the hard case. Alone an in-tune minor third takes some pulling.

When I had the chance to test a sample after I had played my Conn 26K for some years I liked that little 700 very much.

Yet I have some reservations against starting students on 3 valve tubas. In my local environment I have met three players, all older than me, all started out on 3 valve instruments, who all refused to use the 4th valve on compensating instruments. One, on Eb tuba, had an almost perfect major seventh between his F at the bottom of the bass clef staff and the F in the staff. Using 4th valve for both notes would have cleaned up that octave.

Klaus

[Three Valves]

I started tuba and string bass in 5th grade at a public school in Delaware.

Dropped the bass in 10 grade.

Once a tuba player, always a tuba player!!

[Art Hovey]

I have had very young students who started off on a baritone horn and switched to BBb tuba when they grew big enough. The transition for them was much easier than it was for me to switch from Eb to BBb when I was young and stupid. Learning to use a 4th valve later on is not difficult when the student is ready for it. Some people are never ready for it, and that's why there are instruments with three compensating valves. We need to do everything we can to make things simple and easy for young beginners. Once they are "hooked" on music they can deal with complications like extra valves and large instruments.

[imperialbari]

There are two reasons for 3 valve compensating euphoniums and tubas:

The two bands of the British Household Cavalry.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

Am I the only one who learned on a sousaphone in a chair stand??

No.

I side with those who say teach three valves first. It's far easier to add the use of a fourth valve to one's repertoire than it is to be able to do anything useful on a three-valve instrument when one learned using only four valves. And lots of people are paid money to play three-valve tubas.

After all, person who never learned to use a fourth valve can still play a four-valve tuba, learning the technique over time. But a person who never learned to play a three-valve tuba will find one unplayable without a significant learning curve.

But that doesn't mean one won't need it eventually. C and B below the staff are hard to play in tune on a three-valve instrument, and they are solidly within the beginner range.

Rick "who still occasionally plays three-valve instruments" Denney

[imperialbari]

Not a bad solution either:

image.jpg

Twins Vetle and Marius turn 8 today. Euphonium mum and Tuba dad (also birthday today) gave them a pair of used YEP-201 euphs.

Tillykke alle 3!

Klaus