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I am interested in knowing what others believe is important in the design of beginner tubas. My design would closely the Yamaha Bb model 103 which is no longer made. That horn is a compact American style tuba. The ergonomics make it easy for a very young player to handle. German style tubas tend to be taller, making it more difficult for a youngster to reach the mouthpiece and leadpipe. I favor front action valves of the 103 rather than top action valves of some other models. I prefer that beginner tuba be equipped with four valves. The 103 only had three. The design of the case makes it is fairly easy for a young player to handle. What are your thoughts?

Not a bad description of a good horn design for us old farts who need to downsize horn size as we get older as well.

Hi-
I think(?) WISEMANN is making a 4v version of the Yamaha 103 BBb 3v tuba & I think Tom at MACK may begin to carry it--check it out...
Mark

I played a rather nice 3/4 4 valve tuba stamped John Packer at TMEA. In my humble, school teacher opinion, it had to be one of the nicest 3/4 tubas i've played in recent memory. The price was not terrible, and it could very easily be used as a go to for second year players who are not ready to jump to a full 4/4 tuba. Now, with that being said, I saw Tuba Tinker build a YBB 103 with a 4th valve on it. If the powers that be could pull their collective heads out of you know where and just listen to us poor, idiotic band directors who have to use this stuff every day, some serious improvements could be made. I, for one, am also hugely in favor of yamaha making the 321 euphonium with a large bore receiver. Why do we insist on using large bore marching baritones, but small bore euphoniums in concert band time. Sorry for jumping off topic. I would absolutely love it if the instrument manufacturers would enlist those of us who teach everyday to help them design better products! God forbid, they feel like making a better product. Sorry for venting.

Let's talk about front action versus top action as well. 103 versus 105, for instance. My personal preference is for front action as well (slide pulling, ergonomics of playing, which way the bell points) but I can see arguments made that having valves stick out presents a major damage risk. I've seen comments from repair guys, though, about how tough it is to fix those "knuckles" where top action valve pipes come out of the valves themselves.

Sandlapper wrote:Not a bad description of a good horn design for us old farts who need to downsize horn size as we get older as well.

You said it, brother!!

jeopardymaster wrote:Let's talk about front action versus top action as well. 103 versus 105, for instance. My personal preference is for front action as well (slide pulling, ergonomics of playing, which way the bell points) but I can see arguments made that having valves stick out presents a major damage risk. I've seen comments from repair guys, though, about how tough it is to fix those "knuckles" where top action valve pipes come out of the valves themselves.

I dunno. If you break off a valve button, it's not that hard to replace. But if a top-action tuba is put on its bell and knocked over, it will likely tweak the entire valve section and require a very major repair. A front-action tuba falling over after having been stood on its bell probably won't damage the valves.

Rick "keeping instruments in hard cases, and requiring the parents of beginners to be financially responsible for them, are two strategies to ensure greater care" Denney

I like the Olds O-99. A little tough to find a 4-valve one, but it's a good tuba -- medium bore, easy to hold, built like a tank, and sounds nice.

In any case, I think the most important thing is to have a fully functional and well-repaired tuba.

bort wrote:I like the Olds O-99.

Sure, that's a well regarded choice, presumably along with similar or identical models from Conn, Bach, Reynolds, whoever. But I think the hinted-at notion here is like a Suzuki method tuba - we're talking about a tuba for someone too small to play the tuba, right? My impression is that the 103 is distinctly smaller than the Olds.

But I'd think a nice Eb tuba could be smaller yet, and still serve as a good sounding bass tuba in the hands of a not-so-beginner.

Donn wrote:

bort wrote:I like the Olds O-99.

Sure, that's a well regarded choice, presumably along with similar or identical models from Conn, Bach, Reynolds, whoever. But I think the hinted-at notion here is like a Suzuki method tuba - we're talking about a tuba for someone too small to play the tuba, right? My impression is that the 103 is distinctly smaller than the Olds.

But I'd think a nice Eb tuba could be smaller yet, and still serve as a good sounding bass tuba in the hands of a not-so-beginner.

Eb is a good (and historical) option.

The O-99 isn't all that big, but yes, the 103 is much smaller.

The MW-11 is a top-action option as well, which is 4 valves. A little more expensive, but also a little nicer.

The least-expensive-to-make 3/4 tuba is a 3-top-piston instrument, with a main slide in the leadpipe. Based on repair experience, the Jupiter 3-top-piston 3/4 BBb's and the Yamaha YBB-105 are a good choice for a beginner, particularly if clean and put in excellent mechanical condition. If a top-piston instrument's valveset is braced well-enough, a single (or even two or three) tumbles should not disable the valveset. When I see a school-owned front-valve instrument, whether rotor or piston, I see a lot of potential employment for a repair tech.

If the Bach 869 is no longer available, then the Kanstul 3/4 BBb would be a good alternative, which I think was also based upon the Olds, and is a very, very nice American-made 3/4 BBb, and available as a 3- or 4-valve, front-piston instrument. It is not inexpensive, but you do generally get what you pay for.

I question the thought process of schools and educators who insist that they want their students to start on 4-valve instruments, when the books for the first two years at least only have 3-valve fingerings. My experience in teaching middle schoolers suggests strongly that the best course is to get the students fluent in 3-valve fingerings first, using a 3-valve instrument that 1) costs less to purchase 2) is less damage-prone, meaning less expensive to maintain 3) will help them play better in-tune, as 3-valve instruments have a longer 3rd tubing circuit, and often other built-in assistance to make the 3-valve fingerings more in-tune, whereas trying to play 3-valve fingerings on a 4-valve instrument tends to be more out-of-tune than playing the same fingerings on a 3-valve instrument. Furthermore, the student can readily pick up 4th valve use after being fluent in 3-valve fingerings, but I would think that the player might be more likely not to every excel at 3-valve fingerings when needed if they had played (or attempted to play) 4-valve fingerings from the start.

58mark wrote:Brook mays has a 621 copy that really plays pretty darn good

Mark, would you be referring to this one? F. Schmidt F4V34LT BBb 3/4 front action valves tuba

jonesmj wrote:Hi-
I think(?) WISEMANN is making a 4v version of the Yamaha 103 BBb 3v tuba & I think Tom at MACK may begin to carry it--check it out...
Mark

I've got the first one from Tom. Bore is bigger than the 103, closer to the 621. Highly recommended!

If you really think you must have 4 valves and have the money for it, go for it. I think that the talent and motivation level of the student is more important than the style of equipment. I made the cut for high school all-state band with a 3-top-piston instrument, and auditioned and got into college with a scholarship on the same instrument. I regularly practiced the low range with the valves at my disposal, and it seemed to work. Practicing privileged tones below E to the pedal range will also build a strong embouchure.

Concerning low Db, I was thinking more of the 1-3 C or 1-2-3 B-natural being more out-of-tune on a 4-valve instrument.

I was section leader in high school, and all of the concert tubas had four valves, except one 3v King (originally made for the Cleveland Orchestra according to the bell engraving). I consistently used 4 and 24 for C and B natural. However, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get anyone else in my section to use the fourth valve EVER. This was because they were so used to having three valve tubas and sousaphones. Would it have been better for them to have used a four valve earlier on? Or would it have been better to use three valve tubas with longer third slides? I don't know which would have been more effective. 90% of the people in my band didn't care about music whatsoever and just were in the program to go to Disney world and hang out with friends....

Anyways.... I think it's a wise decision to start out with more valves. Even with beginner books that instruct 13 and 123, you can always just tell the kids to change it the moment they get the book, and write in 4 and 24. Later on when they need to play a three valve sousaphone, simply instruct to use 13 and 123. Marching music is usually easier anyways, so relearning the fingering shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for the replies so far. I really believe in players beginning with a four valve instrument. At that level.... I have had many students who begin with a three valve instrument continue with three valve fingerings... even when they switch over to a four valve instrument. I do not use a method book. Instead I issue students a series of worksheets and a fingering chart that includes fingerings for a four valve instrument. Please keep comments coming.

Stephen Shoop wrote:I am interested in knowing what others believe is important in the design of beginner tubas. My design would closely the Yamaha Bb model 103 which is no longer made. That horn is a compact American style tuba. The ergonomics make it easy for a very young player to handle.

The very first tuba I ever played in middle school was an o-l-d, beat-up Yamaha 102 BBb with top-action valves. It was a very small 1/2 size tuba......the bottom bow was smashed flat, the bell was warped, and I think there was a small crack or leak in the leadpipe. The tuba still played well for a youngster It's a shame that model isn't made anymore. The other tuba we had in middle school was a new-ish King 1140, which, as you know, is a small 3/4 BBb with top pistons. That also played well, and I tooted on one last year (after not playing a King 1140 since middle school -- some 19+ years ago), and was surprised how well those little tubas play. Those tubas respond easy, play well in-tune, and give a good sound for their small size. I also made All-State Band from middle to high school on a 3v BBb, and most of the other All-State tuba players also had 3-valve BBb tubas, with a couple on 4-valve tubas.
I think 3-valve small BBb tubas (front or top piston) are best for beginning/middle school use. Sousaphones are commonly equipped with only 3 valves, and are used by middle schools, high schools, colleges, and pros. Granted, 4 or 5 valves are not as "needed" on BBb sousas, because sousas usually have excellent false/ghost tones.
Btw, my middle school used those little tubas & sousas for marching band & concert band, and in high school we used (King) sousaphones almost exclusively for marching band AND concert band, and they sounded great

I guess what I am saying is that beginners/middle school-ers just don't need 4-valve tubas, especially with the way school kids treat school-owned instruments
Keep the tubas small and simple for middle school use IMO, switching over to 4 or 5 valve tubas (any pitch) should be left for the more serious students (in college).

The YBB-103 is an excellent design for beginners, and I hope someone starts cloning them. I believe that they have made Eb tubas unnecessary for beginners.

I don't agree that a 4th valve is important for beginners. It just adds extra weight, which young kids won't appreciate. It's not hard to learn the 4th valve after you have mastered the three, but I think it would be confusing for a young kid who has been taught to use 4 to start playing a sousaphone when he/she gets to high school.

But for folks who feel that a 4th valve is necessary, consider the Weril. Are they still available? Same body and bell as the Yamaha, with four front-action pistons arranged in a very comfortable arc. Pitch is excellent except above the staff, but beginners should not be expected to go that high anyway.

There is also a CC version, for folks who believe in starting a kid off in that key. I've been told that they are common in South America. They do turn up on Ebay now and then.

Am I the only one who learned on a sousaphone in a chair stand??

(Nealy impossible to knock over)

And since my tuba "career" spanned middle, HS and college concert and marching bands, (like most tuba players) and includes two octave range which is adequate for nearly everything I've played thus far, is the forth valve a need or simply a want for 99 44/100
of casual players??

Art Hovey wrote:The YBB-103 is an excellent design for beginners, and I hope someone starts cloning them. I believe that they have made Eb tubas unnecessary for beginners.

Hi-
Here is the 4v Wisemann 510- I believe MACK will be getting them--FYI-mark


http://www.wisemann.com.cn/english/product.asp?id=573" target="_blank