Tongue and Articulation

[brocktorock]

Hello all. As of late, I've noticed some issues with my tonguing and it's placement in my mouth. I have been putting the tip in between my teeth and a lot of the body on the tooth and gums, like "Thuh". This gives me a nice big articulation that is reliable, but I have found it slow and sluggish when approaching higher tempos. I've been experimenting with "Toh" and "Tuh", done on both the roof of my mouth and right where the teeth and gums meet, but my tongue seems to tense up when I do this. I feel like it should be free and relaxed. Does anyone have any thoughts? My teacher is a trombone professor, I was hoping to get a strictly tuba viewpoint.

[iiipopes]

Think about the tongue being more at the top of the back of the incisors where they meet the gums. Think more "D" instead of "Th," as D is a slightly "softer" consonant, more relaxed, as the "Th" can cause the mouth to be too focused and tense. Thinking "D" will bring the articulation focus slightly back from the very tip of the tongue to the top near the tip, and be less of a disruption to the air flow. Drop the jaw and concentrate on being relaxed in the throat with a good bottom of the lungs breath.

Your experience points out all too well the need for more dedicated tuba teachers rather than a low brass generalist teacher.

[happyroman]

Arnold Jacobs said that we control the tongue through diction, as in speech. First of all, you must provide the lips a thick stream of air so they have plenty of fuel to vibrate. In order for this to occur, the tongue must stay low in the oral cavity. We keep it low through the use of the low vowels, OH, OOH, and AHH (without actually vocalizing, of course). When you are playing, sing the music in your head simultaneously, making sure you are singing with one of the low vowels.

Then, as for the tonguing part, Mr, Jacobs recommended thinking about the syllable HO, with a very small t in front of it, so that you are using about 5% t and 95% HO.

The key to all of this, IMO, is that the lips must vibrate IMMEDIATELY when we are playing. My personal belief is that what many perceive to be a problem with the tongue is actually a problem with a lack of vibration of the lips. If the lip does not vibrate, there is no note to come out of the horn, no matter how light and fast the tongue is inside the mouth.

I would suggest doing as much playing on the mouthpiece alone as on the tuba, working on the passages that are giving you trouble with your articulation. The keys will be to take very large breaths so you can watse the air (it will run out very quickly on the mouthpiece alone), and work the passages out VERY SLOWLY in order to ensure accuracy. At times, you should be playing so slowly that the tune you are playing is not recognizable.

I recently heard a quote by Bud Herseth that really resonated with me. He said "I practice slower than anyone I've ever met." Mr. Herseth called that "his secret."

Hope this helps.

[brocktorock]

I don't think my vibration is the issue. I can get a good, clean start on just about any note with just my air; I've worked on that a lot. My issue seems to be more of the tongue tensing and getting in the way of the air. I can say and sing "Doh, Dooh, Toh, Tooh, etc." But when I push the air behind it my tongue constricts. Lowering my jaw and trying to keep my tongue low has helped on the mouthpiece so far, I'll try it in the horn when I get home to it.

[happyroman]

I don't think my vibration is the issue. I can get a good, clean start on just about any note with just my air; I've worked on that a lot. My issue seems to be more of the tongue tensing and getting in the way of the air. I can say and sing "Doh, Dooh, Toh, Tooh, etc." But when I push the air behind it my tongue constricts. Lowering my jaw and trying to keep my tongue low has helped on the mouthpiece so far, I'll try it in the horn when I get home to it.

It sounds like you are "pressurizing" the air behind the tongue. This may also be causing you to contract the abdominal muscles isometrically, which will restrict the air flow. If you are able to make the notes speak easily with a breath attack, work on just adding a little of the t consonant in front of that, keeping in mind that you want 5% t and 95% OH.

Also, watch these interviews that Mike Grose has done with many former Jacobs students. There is a ton of info there that you will find helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TubaPeopleTV" target="_blank

[tubajoe]

It sounds like you are "pressurizing" the air behind the tongue. This may also be causing you to contract the abdominal muscles isometrically, which will restrict the air flow. If you are able to make the notes speak easily with a breath attack, work on just adding a little of the t consonant in front of that, keeping in mind that you want 5% t and 95% OH.

Exactly. Happyroman is totally correct.
Brocktorock, I'll jump in as I was just working with a student on this exact issue and have been working on some instructional writing on this exact thing.... here's some recent notes about it 'in a nutshell'

The phenomenon you speak of is not uncommon but is a very inefficient way to play. It is a way to succesffuly get a big thud articulation on single notes, but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

It is absolutely a pre-pressurization situation, often occurring in concert with the Valsalva maneuver (as well as other throat involvement) … this is all part of a natural tendency that just occurs in some people -- to artificially raise inner pressure. There are many possible reasons for this (nervous habits etc), but one suffice to say is that you are possibly (perhaps even subconsciously) wanting to “feel” playing the tuba. Understand that your body has the ability to feel air pressure, but your body does not have the ability to feel air quantity. Air quantity is what makes the tuba play.
Don’t play by feel. Trust your ears, use the Force, Luke.


Getting the articulation to work correctly takes patience, but you’ll notice eventually that you’ll have a lot more flexibility, dexterity and range once you get it right. AND, you'll crack a lot less notes.

Work for for a tA articulation and uninterrupted wind flow. Your tongue should be fairly pointed and in general, strike right above the upper front teeth (same as when you say "T"). Wind needs to always a constant and don't interrupt it with "TuT" or worse, "Thoop" articulations. Keep that tongue in your mouth.


When going about it correctly, at first it will seem as your articulations are fuzzy, that’s because your chops are used to that added “thump” of the tongue to start getting them to vibrate. You don’t need it. Be patient. Once your embouchure is used to more air quantity and less pressure, you’ll notice how much easier it is to play.


Some specific things to help:

1.) Making sure your exchange between inhalation and exhalation is completely immediate with no delay between exchange. Never "cap off" your full tank of air.
2.) Fill up 100% before you play (the added pressure you are using is often a substitute for not enough air quantity) Always totally fill up. That air has to come out somehow.
3.) Use speech as a model. Inhale then immediately say the syllable TOH. Do this about a million times.
4.) Use a mouthpiece ring (visualizer), you’ll notice it’s almost impossible to initiate a buzz with the tongue protruding
5.) Play scales double-tongued. Believe it or not, this is part of a quick-fix for this problem. Do it even if you aren't good at it yet.
6.) Play the Arban grupetto pages (#2 is the best) this is a “magic exercise” when it comes to getting everything in sync
7.) try to play every day. Even if only for 10 minutes, play every day. People with natural Valsalva/pressure tendencies will revert when correct habits aren't maintained.
8.) Buzz your mouthpiece like crazy.
9.) Be willing to "waste air" as you play.


Above all, let me reiterate that it’s the air quantity that powers the sound, not the tongue or air pressure. Keep the body of the tongue as naturally low and relaxed as possible and your throat as open as possible, and keep the tip of the tongue pointed and agile. Speech and singing should be your guide, the process is (and should be) almost identical.

[brocktorock]

This sounds like a firm diagnosis. I'm going to approach my teacher with this information. When I exhale, I engage/flex my core abdominal muscles and push the air out. I think I picked it up in drum corps. Is this the cause of the pressurization issue?

[tubajoe]

"When I exhale, I engage/flex my core abdominal muscles and push the air out. I think I picked it up in drum corps. Is this the cause of the pressurization issue?"

Yikes. (not gonna touch that one... most corps are not like that :O )

It's a big related combination of things. Don't "flex" any muscles to push any air out. Your body's 'equilibrium' is only 1/5-1/4 full. You don't need to push anything. (research Jacobs' description of the "three uses of the abdominal muscles" as related to respiration) Just get that air in and it will need to come out.

Read/Listen (stat!) to Arnold Jacobs' lectures on this (two of the best ones are archived... follow the "Tips on Playing' link)

As for your articulation issues, it's not from the mis-teaching of the use of your abdominal muscles, it's simply a natural phenomenon and from self-teaching and possibly a large tongue. It's not hard to correct. Take some lessons from a tuba player, that'll help straighten you out too.

[patricklugo]

RIGHT ON TUBAJOE.

I suffered this problem when I got in to college and it is an issue that I am still learning to deal with it today. I wish that one day it goes away forever. so playing becomes fun again.

the breathing bag seems to be helping me and also counting my self off before playing with the right tempo.(this is something I am starting to work on)with the breathing bag, I work on articulation.and it is a good visualizer to see the air motion. and I just go back do the same on the tuba.

the only bad thing is that the problem comes back, and you have it on the back of your mind. it can screw up your performance.

I am learning now that this issue has to be address like any other fundamental routine in your daily routine such as low range , high range etc. eventually you will get better at it. and the problem is less of an issue.

[mceuph]

I wrote my dissertation on this behavior, which I have dealt with for for over 20 years. To make a very long story short, if this is indeed what is happening in your situation:

-there is a strong correlation between this behavior and speech stuttering. So much so that I refer to it as "musical stuttering". In speech stuttering, this exact behavior would be referred to as "blocking." The big difference is that speech stuttering usually begins between the ages of 3 and 5, when we are making the transition from sounds and words to more advanced communication. At this point your motor skills may not be caught up with your brain, resulting in the stuttering behavior. My hypothesis is that this is the same process that young brass players (serious high school and college students) go through as the make the transition from notes and sounds to advanced musical communication. I surveyed numerous brass players, and the onset of these symptoms seem to fit in with this hypothesis...it seems to start during the later high school/college age.

-physically, the valsalva maneuver is often involved, creating the pressurization mentioned in above posts.

- In my opinion, this is not a purely physical issue. Many teachers approach this as such and only address the physical symptoms. The truth IMO is that the physical behavior is a symptom of some other underlying anxiety or negative emotions pertaining to performing. This often happens when players are extremely focused on being perfect in their playing. In my paper, I refer several times to Arnold Jacobs and advocate a simple, natural approach to teaching the instrument. I believe this behavior is the ultimate example of "paralysis through analysis."

-if this is what you are going through, you need to examine your relationship with your instrument and your overall attitude toward playing(including the physical apparatus). in my case, after a lot of soul searching and self-analysis, I realized that this was not something that occurred "out of the blue." I realized that I had gradually worked myself up to that point. As you are learning to replace your bad habits with more healthy ones, be very patient and kind with yourself. Sometimes I go to play my first note and I just can't to it. 15 years ago I would have gotten very upset and worked myself into a ball of frustration. Not I just turn on the metronome and enjoy making sound. I don't treat it any more different or special than any other missed note.

Good luck with this. When I first dealt with it no one understood what I was dealing with. I now realize that many people have gone through the same issue. I've even spoken to a few woodwind players and one pianist that have had similar experiences. It's great to see that this is an issue that people are discussing.

[brocktorock]

Thank you all for the advice. I think in my case it truly is just a physical aspect probably brought on from self-teaching. I'm a confident public speaker and performer with relatively little performance anxiety. I think I was just never told not to play like that

[MaryAnn]

I have recently wondered if there is a connection between stuttering and focal dystonia.....I think there are a lot of things out there that are "forms of" or "related to" focal dystonia that are not recognized as being in that family. Focal dystonia is a brain path problem, in which signals get mixed up and the body does things the person does not intend. This valsalva thing sounds like one of them, to me. The recognized personality type of someone who gets focal dystonia is the absolute perfectionist, the person who feels s/he has to define how everything is done in order to get it done as well as possible. While to a certain extent that is necessary in playing an instrument, it can go too far and get out of hand. It may not be conscious either, because the person does everything that way. I got dystonia as a violin major in college; I got it again when I tried to learn to play tennis; I'm sure I would have eventually developed the "yips" had I become serious about golf, and I got emobuchure dystonia after eleven years on the horn. I never got it skiing because skiing was just too damn much fun to get seriously involved in the technique of it, and I wasn't trying to make the Olympic team.

So....when someone has a problem like this, a more generalized approach is needed rather than just trying to correct the affected part of the technique. Joaquin Fabria is very successful at helping people to make the right kind of changes, as is Jon Gorrie, and reading Dave Vining's success story is valuable. Alexander training can change a person's life, and things like body mapping are useful. I just got a positive result from making a fairly minor change in how I play, because it altered the brain path used, which is how the disorder is corrected.

Best of luck to the OP and to anyone else with this type of problem.

[mceuph]

The recognized personality type of someone who gets focal dystonia is the absolute perfectionist

MaryAnn,

I'm not necessarily doubting that this is true, but has this been firmly established through research or is this more anecdotal? Have there been no cases of persons with more "relaxed" approaches that have suffered dystonia? Just curious.

Martin

[Three Valves]

Isn't there a pill for that now??

[happyroman]

- In my opinion, this is not a purely physical issue. Many teachers approach this as such and only address the physical symptoms. The truth IMO is that the physical behavior is a symptom of some other underlying anxiety or negative emotions pertaining to performing. This often happens when players are extremely focused on being perfect in their playing. In my paper, I refer several times to Arnold Jacobs and advocate a simple, natural approach to teaching the instrument. I believe this behavior is the ultimate example of "paralysis through analysis."

You are right on the money here. Mr. Jacobs would call this "a learned reflex response to a stimulus." It;'s just like touching a hot stove. Once you learn the stove is hot (usually only taking one touch to learn this) you reflexively pull away as soon as you get close enough to feel the heat. An analogy would be if you lifted your leg every time you played a high C. Pretty soon, you would not be able to play the high C if you did not lift your leg. Obviously, lifting the leg has nothing to do with playing. But, the critical aspect is the learned reflex response (playing the high C) to the stimulus (lifting your leg).

If you want something different to occur, you MUST change the stimulus involved, which is best done away from the instrument. Breathing bags are great, as is the Breath Builder. These devices will train you to fill and empty the lungs, working frog to tip (using a string players bow as an analogy for the breath).

You also want to focus on the air as wind OUTSIDE the body (inside it is pressure, and not wind).Blow against the back of your hand, blow out candles, hold a sheet of paper at arms length and blow your air stream so it flutters in the wind. But the key is to blow the air from the lips. Don't worry about what the body is doing. If you send the signal to suck in a large breath, the "computer level" of the brain will make room for it. The same when blowing out.

Blow it out and place your hands on your stomach. Feel it moving in as the lungs empty, allowing the diaphragm to relax and return to a state of repose in its natural high position. (When you breathe in, the diaphragm contracts and lowers, drawing air in to the lower part of the lungs). As it lowers, the stomach will protrude. So, as you fill and empty the lungs, the chest rises and falls, and the stomach protrudes and retracts.

However, it is imperative that you remember that these body shape changes are something that are allowed to happen. Focus on the air at the lips. Stand in front of a mirror and suck in a huge breath at the lips in a frictionless manner, and then blow it out past the lips and observe what happens with your body. Get the breathing devices we mentioned and use them in front of a mirror so you can establish new, more helpful habits. Then, when you go to the tuba, forget all of that and just play. Over time, the new habits will create new neural patterns, and the old patterns will wither away.

[happyroman]

Here are a couple of great quotes on this topic by Mr. Jacobs I just read at Mike Grose's TubaPeople Facebook page.

When blowing, order motion rather than pressure. It is helpful to spend a few minutes a day blowing out candles (imaginary or real), blowing pieces of paper, etc. You must always remember that in the order of thought, 15% is about air, but 85% is about music. We play by song, not air. We need air to play, but music should always be the dominant thought.
---Arnold Jacobs

Always order wind, not expansion. In other words, when you take a breath, you must order suction of air from the tip of your mouth. The psychology of wind is at the tip of your mouth. When you order suction of air expansion will follow. But if you merely order expansion you may or may not get any air. The body can lie. Breathe to expand, don’t expand to breathe.
---Arnold Jacobs ‪

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tuba-Peo ... 5626584061" target="_blank" target="_blank

[swillafew]

Once you make up your mind to speed up the tongue, you have to work it a lot. You should also work on multiple tonguing for when the single tongue speed maxes out. Good teachers made me multiple tongue at much slower tempos than you might expect. Eventually one gets speed and strength the issue has been solved. After I saw tongue in a clear mouthpiece I realized that the placement thing is not necessarily what I thought it was.

[toobagrowl]

Don't overthink it. I use a pointed "D" tongue/articulation most of the time, and it works very well. Think 'lightly' when playing articulated passages......'strike' the notes like a snake