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Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:58 am
by TubaZac2012
Unless my I missed it i have been trying to find some good reading material about piston valves vs. rotary valves.
I have played on piston valves 7 out of the 8 years I've been playing tuba, but recently I got rid of my Willson 3050 and needed and in between horn for community band, and after talking to some of you, and reading reviews I got the Gold Brass 410 Model, which plays great in tune, not the biggest sound, granted, it is a 4/4, but nontheless, it's serving it's purpose right now.
Only problem? I'm just not crazy about rotary valved tubas. Sure, it plays swell, intonation is great for a horn I haven't thrown too much money into, but I don't know if it's the valve quality, or me just used to mashing down pistons for the longest, I don't get around technically nearly as proficiently, and I've been playing on the 410 for well over 6 months.
So my question to the tubenet community, do you feel like there are piston player, and there are rotary players, or do you think there are hybrids? Personally I think it's whatever you get around on the best, for me, it's most certainly pistons.
Thanks in advance,
Zac
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:04 am
by bighonkintuba
TubaZac2012 wrote:Personally I think it's whatever you get around on the best...
The answer to the vast majority of gear-related questions posed on Tubenet (old or new). :)
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:17 am
by Three Valves
In this case the focus appears to be on the player type, as opposed the the horn/valve type.
Nearly all of my student playing career was in public schools and universities playing sousaphone marching or an old upright Conn in concert.
That makes me a piston guy.
(three)
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:21 am
by TubaZac2012
Thanks Joe,
I'd still like to read new views, I loved the CC vs. BBb argument/discussion that has recently died off, but I hadn't found a Piston vs. Rotary debate in the last year or so, so I thought I'd throw it out there for people to talk about.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:24 am
by TubaZac2012
Three Valves wrote:In this case the focus appears to be on the player type, as opposed the the horn/valve type.
Nearly all of my student playing career was in public schools and universities playing sousaphone marching or an old upright Conn in concert.
That makes me a piston guy.
(three)
See that's the thing, I started out on a 3 valve King not a 2341, but an older version 3 piston version of it, anyways, from there I got my 1291, then I got my Willson, then I got my PT 18 MRP, and then I got rid of the Willson and got the Mack brass, again, can't express how much I enjoy the horn, but rotary valves are just different.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:42 am
by bighonkintuba
You've answered your own question - twice!
Is this recent enough?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65278&hilit=piston+rotary" target="_blank
TubaZac2012 wrote:Three Valves wrote:In this case the focus appears to be on the player type, as opposed the the horn/valve type.
Nearly all of my student playing career was in public schools and universities playing sousaphone marching or an old upright Conn in concert.
That makes me a piston guy.
(three)
:mrgreen:
See that's the thing, I started out on a 3 valve King not a 2341, but an older version 3 piston version of it, anyways, from there I got my 1291, then I got my Willson, then I got my PT 18 MRP, and then I got rid of the Willson and got the Mack brass, again, can't express how much I enjoy the horn, but rotary valves are just different.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:49 am
by TubaZac2012
bighonkintuba wrote:You've answered your own question - twice!
Is this recent enough?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65278&hilit=piston+rotary" target="_blank" target="_blank
TubaZac2012 wrote:Three Valves wrote:In this case the focus appears to be on the player type, as opposed the the horn/valve type.
Nearly all of my student playing career was in public schools and universities playing sousaphone marching or an old upright Conn in concert.
That makes me a piston guy.
(three)
See that's the thing, I started out on a 3 valve King not a 2341, but an older version 3 piston version of it, anyways, from there I got my 1291, then I got my Willson, then I got my PT 18 MRP, and then I got rid of the Willson and got the Mack brass, again, can't express how much I enjoy the horn, but rotary valves are just different.
Yes! I didn't see that one. I tend to skim through them and I must have missed that one.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:08 am
by bighonkintuba
DP wrote:bloke wrote:PFFT! ...said the bloke with thirty-one thousand posts on "new TubeNet"
But... what is the actual number of posts after correcting for redundancy?
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:03 am
by Ulli
bloke wrote:"Piston vs. Rotary", "Lacquer vs. Silver", and "BBb vs. CC" were the only things that were discussed
Everything has been said- but not yet from everyone.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:05 am
by TubaZac2012
Ulli wrote:bloke wrote:"Piston vs. Rotary", "Lacquer vs. Silver", and "BBb vs. CC" were the only things that were discussed
Everything has been said- but not yet from everyone.
Part of the reason I made a new post, thanks for the clarification! Well said!
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:08 am
by bort
Well, there are a few things -- is it for comfort, for sound, for mechanical/maintenance reasons? For any or all of those reasons, a person might choose one over the other, or for other reasons altogether.
That said, you have to compare apples to apples. If you're comparing Swiss-built piston action to Chinese-built rotary action, it's not likely to be the best comparison. If "feel" is the bigger concern, try some non-Chinese rotary tubas. On the few Chinese rotary tubas I've played, I think the build quality and feel of the valves was a lot better on the German horns. Of course, comparing a $15k horn to a $1.5k horn, you should really expect as much. I don't think it's fair to make an assessment of "piston vs. rotary" with horns at two widely different levels of construction.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:12 am
by Three Valves
See, that was a question about the mechanics of the devices.
This is a more player-centric approach!!
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:33 am
by bighonkintuba
Three Valves wrote:This is a more player-centric approach!! :mrgreen:
Oh...
Can someone please tell me whether piston or rotary valves work best for me?
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:50 am
by bighonkintuba
THIS should be part of the first entry in the long-delayed and very necessary Tubenet FAQ&A. Nicely done!
DP wrote:"player-centric"? Ok, try this:
Pistons, even inexpensive ones, don't require a "light touch."
The paddles on inexpensive rotary horns are not as rigid,
so if you have a heavy hand (some teachers call it "over-fingering")
the paddles flex (using the word "bend" could get their salespeople bleating, so I won't use it)
Put a different way, the valve action will not feel as precise (primarily) on (inexpensive) rotary horns.
Overfingering players experience that tension in a lot of different ways.
When a mechanism, ANY mechanism requires a light touch or really any cognitive attention
when you are using it, that mindfulness may effect whatever it is you are trying to do as a musician.
If YOU say that doesn't affect YOU, it can and in many cases does affect other players.
And if it can or DOES affect YOU (in reality, or hypothetically)
its up to you to reduce the distractions and chose what works for you.
I am not suggesting that distraction is exclusive to cheaply-made hardware, nor is it excluded from expensive stuff.
And obviously distraction that impacts your playing aversely can come from anywhere (even TubeNet.)
But the OP was looking for something of a human factors basis for preference of rotaries or pistons.
The OP senses that hardware variations can bear upon different human factors.
To answer the OP question, yes, there probably are piston people and rotary people,
but not solely because of the hardware-specific variable we've singled out.
-30-
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:54 pm
by boobentuben
i'm bi-valve i go both ways
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:10 pm
by Three Valves
boobentuben wrote:i'm bi-valve i go both ways
I thought that meant you only play piston tubas in a month that has an "R" in it.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:24 pm
by bighonkintuba
I have a thing for bivalve(r)s.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:05 pm
by Three Valves
That one on top appears to have a thing for you.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:43 pm
by TheGoyWonder
Sure there's a difference. Look at any piston valve, and look through the ports: they are never perfectly round, there's always a bump to accommodate the other ports. the air column gets a little pinched there.
Do rotors have these? Probably not.
Re: Piston vs. Rotary
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:21 pm
by Michael Bush
TheGoyWonder wrote:Sure there's a difference. Look at any piston valve, and look through the ports: they are never perfectly round, there's always a bump to accommodate the other ports. the air column gets a little pinched there.
Do rotors have these? Probably not.
Nor do MAW valves have them, but perhaps that's a bit of a special case.