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I contemplated doing the same thing on my old Alexander F tuba. I ended up putting it on the leadpipe because it gave me more options, the horn played great after the addition and the use of 1-5 as an alternate to 2-3 was wonderful. 2-4 worked for some notes (F#) but I could use 2-3-5 for low B, plus depending on how much you have to push those 2-4 notes, it's nice to have a slightly flat alternate fingering.

If you're going to spend the money, I'd say give yourself the most options and put it on the leadpipe.

Jeff

Pro: you're less likely to impact feel of the horn.
Con: you may impact the feel of the 4 th valve only.

Pro: you'll have a 5v tuba that can easily convert back to 4 v if desired.
Con: planning it to be sure the dependent valve fits and doesn't impact the 4 th too much. much.

Pro: it'll be a good experiment, esp if you're doing it yourself.
Con: you'll have to match the bore of the 4 th .
That could be good or bad.

Pro: you're a guinea pig for anyone rise with a 601.
Con: have you checked to be sure there isn't a 5th valve already? (Happy 4/1!)

bloke wrote: The only dependent valve tuba that I ever modified for my own use was done that way because there was absolutely no other place to locate the 5th valve.

I have yet to encounter, after several instances, a horn that plays substantially different after adding a non-dependent 5th valve.

Obviously, a dependent 5th valve can only be used with the 4th valve, considerably limiting how often you can use it.

If you're doing the work yourself (as I suspect) nothing is set in stone. Save all the original parts, in case you want to put things back as they were.

I also believe that adding a 5th valve on a rotary tuba is completely different situation than on a piston valve horn. In essence, adding a 5th valve on a rotary horn is doing nothing more than shortening an already very long leadpipe by a few inches.

bloke wrote:
I seriously don't believe that I'm a sensitive enough player to notice.

What I've observed stated on this forum leads me to believe the contrary.

I removed the 5th valve on my 52J several years ago and the tuba played dramatically different as a 4 valve tuba - better!!

I owned a 1971, 186 4U CC and I thought it played better than any 5 valve versions I played. Others who played it thought the same.

I owned an HB - 1P (4 valves) and several who played it remarked that it plays so much better than the 2P (5 valves.)

If you compare a 4 valve version of an instrument to the same tuba in 5 valves, I would believe that the 4 valve tuba plays better; freer blowing, more resonance and clarity of tone, and better slotting.

However, most of us prefer to have 5 valves, especially if the tuba is being used for large ensemble work where a lot of the playing can sit below the staff. Maybe it's less important in solo, jazz and quintet playing. Many famous tuba players got by without the 5th.

That's my opinion based on owning 3, 4 valve CC tubas over a period of 30 years. I didn't really address the topic here. It's just food for thought.

Mark,
Perhaps, if you were able to install it in the main slide, like on the 5XJ tubas, you could detach the linkage, unscrew the main slide connected to the 5th valve rotor, have another straight main slide built and you can use it both ways. On the 5XJ tubas, you can unscrew the entire 5th valve assembly. I originally tried it by using plastic tubing from Home Depot and I squeezed it on. It's been a while and I since sold that tuba to a student, so I can't totally picture it now. Matt Walters built a straight tube for me and I was able to unscrew the tubing connected to the main slide with the rotor in it and replace it with Matt's straight tube. I left the thumb lever in tact. After the modification, I played it as a 4 valve tuba most of the time. Then, I remember when I was playing the Hindemith Symphony with a small wind ensemble where I was the only tuba, I unscrewed the straight tuba and screwed on the 5th valve tube and screwed the 5th valve arm (which I left attached to the rotor) onto the thumb lever. So, you would need the ability to unscrew each tube ( straight tuba and the original tube with the 5th valve rotor in it.). The 52J comes with the 5th valve installed as an afterthought. That's another story. Just a thought!!

58mark wrote:I have a 835 5th valve from a miraphone on the way, with the plan to install it in on my 601. I'm nervous about messing up the characteristics of the horn by putting it in the leadpipe, so I'm thinking of putting it as a dependant attachment on the 4th valve.

I'm having the same thoughts as you have, for my 4 valve 4/4 BBb Rudy...
it plays so well as it is now, that I'm scared to have a less good tuba after trying to install a 5th valve somewhere.
Because contemporary band/brassband literature goes easily to low D and below, I could really use another valve.
As Rudy could deliver original parts for a 5th rotor, lead pipe, 5th valve tubing and linkage for thumb action... I could save all original parts and put the horn back in original condition if it would turn out badly.

Still considering...

A Piggy is an extreme example, but I've played several 5v Piggy examples that truly suck. Only one did I play before and after, and it was a pretty good player before. PItch was as good as I've ever experienced on a Piggy before, and tone and feel overall. After the 5th added, it was horrible. Pitch was totally screwed, to the point the mid staff range was unusable without alternates (from the "standard") and even then required lots of slide manipulation. Stuffiness went from a level of 2 or so to an 8 (scale of 10). Ruined a nice playing tuba. Valve came off, the characteristics reverted also. Maybe it was a badly bent leadpipe, or something, but that was a scary change.

Curmudgeon wrote:

roweenie wrote:

bloke wrote:
I seriously don't believe that I'm a sensitive enough player to notice.

What I've observed stated on this forum leads me to believe the contrary.

That was a shot...

Why do you think this was meant to be a shot? You couldn't be more wrong.

oedipoes wrote:

58mark wrote:I have a 835 5th valve from a miraphone on the way, with the plan to install it in on my 601. I'm nervous about messing up the characteristics of the horn by putting it in the leadpipe, so I'm thinking of putting it as a dependant attachment on the 4th valve.

I'm having the same thoughts as you have, for my 4 valve 4/4 BBb Rudy...
it plays so well as it is now, that I'm scared to have a less good tuba after trying to install a 5th valve somewhere.
Because contemporary band/brassband literature goes easily to low D and below, I could really use another valve.
As Rudy could deliver original parts for a 5th rotor, lead pipe, 5th valve tubing and linkage for thumb action... I could save all original parts and put the horn back in original condition if it would turn out badly.

Still considering...

If it's an option (both in terms of logistics and costs) -- can you just send the tuba back to Rudi and ask them to do the work at the factory?

58mark wrote:Trying to figure out the linkage question on a valve that will move with the tuning slide

I might be able to make the linkage self contained so the only thing it's connected to is the tuning slide

I was wondering about that too. I think it has to be NOT on a slide.

I don't love dependent 5th valves, but I can understand it better in this context (aftermarket) than with something that's designed that way. It's not a bad idea!

58mark wrote:Trying to figure out the linkage question on a valve that will move with the tuning slide

I might be able to make the linkage self contained so the only thing it's connected to is the tuning slide

Where do you put your left hand?

I have only played front valve tubas for a short amount of time. The three I've owned (12J, Alex 155f, Piggy) have forced me to place my left hand differently. However on a something like the piggy I could consider putting my hand on the top bow or near there.
A horn style valve (Like the thumb rotor valve) might work if you place your hand near the 4th slide of the pig and are willing to use the 5th valve with your left thumb.

Also, this might jog your mind:

http://hornguys.myshopify.com/products/ ... ium-silver" target="_blank

___

I think the 5th valve dependant is the wisest solution. If you get an extra slide to start of with, you might even have the option of trying it on or off depending on the piece. (Who knows, it might help change resistance/projection/etc?)

You likely won't be moving the 4 th slide a lot. But. ..maybe that's the rationale Of the BMW design?

bort wrote: If it's an option (both in terms of logistics and costs) -- can you just send the tuba back to Rudi and ask them to do the work at the factory?

Yes, it is an option.
It is a one-days drive, so I could bring it there and pick it up later.
However, it would be probably more cost-effective to have a repair tech order the parts from Rudy, and let him install the parts.
(I think they are quite busy building new instruments...)
We'll see...

DP wrote:I am more of a believer in a 2-step 5th valve than a long whole step 5th valve on rotary tubas

I've never played a tuba with this configuration. They were, indeed, much more common a few decades ago. Why would the long whole step have become so prominent over the 2-step 5th valve?

That was a shot...

Why do you think this was meant to be a shot? You couldn't be more wrong.

Bloke and I both know it wasn't a shot, but just looked humorous... No worries.

Whew. Thanks for clarifying that.

Bloke has been so helpful to me that I recoiled from the thought that anybody would think that I would attack him......

DP wrote: I am not sold on the "need" for a 5th valve on a BBflat tuba

Why?

roweenie wrote:

DP wrote: I am not sold on the "need" for a 5th valve on a BBflat tuba

Why?

A D is about the lowest "commonly" needed note. On some CC tubas, that can be tough to make speak. Aside from some small bore tubas, I've never had a problem with 234 D on a 4v tuba. The C is tougher to speak, yes, but how often is that needed? Really, truly, how many?

I'm playing the Vaughan Williams 5 Mystical Songs in a couple weeks. Last note is this D, no problem on my Martin BBb. It even speaks and tunes well as 124 with a pull on 1.

I agree with DP. For another reason, it simply adds weight that I don't need or want to deal with.

eupher61 wrote:

roweenie wrote:

DP wrote: I am not sold on the "need" for a 5th valve on a BBflat tuba

Why?

A D is about the lowest "commonly" needed note. On some CC tubas, that can be tough to make speak. Aside from some small bore tubas, I've never had a problem with 234 D on a 4v tuba. The C is tougher to speak, yes, but how often is that needed? Really, truly, how many?

I'm playing the Vaughan Williams 5 Mystical Songs in a couple weeks. Last note is this D, no problem on my Martin BBb. It even speaks and tunes well as 124 with a pull on 1.

I agree with DP. For another reason, it simply adds weight that I don't need or want to deal with.

I guess it comes down to what we expect to get from our horns.

Not all contrabass tubas have useable false tones.

As far as I'm concerned, it only takes one time to be asked to produce a note and fail to do it, to "sell" me on having the extra edge that the additional hardware gives me.

Any pitch quirks that are present on a C tuba will also be present on a B flat tuba (the fifth valve *can* be useful for notes that are not in the low register, too).

I like to have options, and if it means carrying around 2 extra pounds, I'm willing to make that sacrifice, YMMV.

For me, skimping on equipment (assuming it can be afforded, which would be the most logical reason to pass on a 5th valve, IMHO) is like saying, "I'll pass on the Sony HD smart TV, I've got this DuMont set that works just fine".

I have 5ths on both of my horns.

I can see both positions of pro/con, but I think it boils down to 3 things

1 How bad do you want it?
2 How bad do you need it?
3 What playing do you do?

In brass banding whether on CC or BBb it absolutely necessary and any tubist in a brass band will confirm it makes life easier when you have it. Privileged tones are great but if you cant move between them and the rest of the horn fast enough other options are needed. Does it add weight? A pound or so but when your horn weighs 30 pounds whats 16 more ounces...For concert band and orchestral literature you can most certainly go without it with some good skill. I have several friends that can play any orchestral literature with a 4 valve horn and sound phenomenal. The same debate was with dual valved bass trombones vs single valved years ago when the Gb valve came on the scene. FWIW see the 3 needs above.