TubeNet

I know on my tubas, the 5th valve is a long 1st valve. And i would guess that the 6th would be a long 2nd valve. They would help to add tubing in the lower register.

If i am thinking of this wrong, someone feel free to correct me.

The fifth valve is most commonly a flat whole step. First valve is long enough to lower the pitch of a C tuba to a Bb tuba. Fourth valve is long enough to lower it to a G tuba. However, the first valve is not long enough to lower a G tuba to an F tuba. (Notice how much longer BBb tuba slides are compared to F or Eb tubas). That being said, 124 is too flat to get that low F. 14 is too sharp. 45 is perfectly in tune because it is made to be that in between length. A four valve tuba cannot play a half step above the pedal because the more valves you throw down, the sharper it gets because you're changing the key of the tuba with each valve being thrown down, and they are tuned to the original key. With a fifth valve, you have to move slides very little, or not at all in the lower register, and the semitone above the pedal becomes accessible.

The sixth valve is traditionally a flat half step. 24 is generally slightly sharp. 235 is flat. 46 is in tune for the same reasons as why 45 is better in tune than 14 or 124.

Even on a BBb tuba the fifth valve is useful. It would make your low Eb in tune without pulling or pushing slides, give you a low B natural, make your low C possible without pulling any slides, or very little, and give you an alternate fingering for low B natural and E natural (235 instead of 24)

I can help in the first question. The 5th valve is either a flat whole step, or a two whole step system, which is considered "west coast style," but traditionally the 5th is a flat whole step, which make a C tuba like a BBb, essentially.

I've never owned a 6 valve tuba, so I don't know. I'm interested to learn! I think it's so you can play like one note with all six valves, that not being pedal F. Other notes, too, but that's all I know of.

Sorry for my ignorance I the 6th valve department, never owned one, so I don't know.

Hope this helped,
Zac

TubaZac2012 wrote:I can help in the first question. The 5th valve is either a flat whole step, or a two whole step system, which is considered "west coast style," but traditionally the 5th is a flat whole step, which make a C tuba like a BBb, essentially.

I've never owned a 6 valve tuba, so I don't know. I'm interested to learn! I think it's so you can play like one note with all six valves, that not being pedal F. Other notes, too, but that's all I know of.

Sorry for my ignorance I the 6th valve department, never owned one, so I don't know.

Hope this helped,
Zac

Trying to play a CC tuba like a BBb using the fifth valve is a bad idea... The valve is too long. It's a FLAT whole step. Not a whole step. Also, the slides are too short for a BBb tuba. They are long enough for CC. Also, it makes the horn stuffier, and tends to be pretty out of tune compared to playing it as CC. It would be like throwing in even more cylindrical tubing into a CC tuba to try to make it play like a BBb. Tuba is a conical instrument. Cylindrical tubing needs to be minimized at all cost. Use the fifth for its intended purpose.

I meant it more of less lowers it the whole step, which puts it in BBb, I don't disagree with anything you said. I'd never throw down the 5th and play BBb fingers. That'd be a bad idea.

a fifth valve allows you to play all the low notes.
a sixth valve allows you to play the lower octave in tune.

Fifth valves are also available as a minor third (equivalent to valves 2 & 3 together). This gives a different set of fingerings and alternates in the low register. This is common on older Miraphones, and still available as an option. When I learned to play a 5-valve tuba, it was with this configuration, so that's what comes to me most naturally.

Question -- is a 2nd valve slide kicker more-or-less an equivalent solution to having a 6th valve? I mean, besides the fact that it only works for 2nd valve notes, it seems like an equivalent solution, right? Making the half-step a little longer?

Basically, the 5th valve allows your tuba to go completely down to the fundamental (open pedal "C" on a CC tuba) using "real" notes and no "ghost/false tone" notes. The 5th valve also allows for many more alternate fingerings and finer intonation, particularly in the lower register. Most 5th valves are "flat whole steps", which is equivalent to a flat first valve. It is a "flat whole step" because the 5th valve is normally used in the lower register, and the overtone series gets sharper the lower and more valves you use. So the flatness of that 5th valve compensates for the inherent sharpness of the lower register/more valves "issue" tubas have; particularly in conjunction with the 4th valve. I have also found the 4th valve to be built slightly flat on my CC tuba for the same intonation compensation.

6th valves are more common on F tubas.

michael_glenn wrote: 235 is flat.

235 is smack-dab in-tune for C#/Db on my CC tuba, and low A on my Eb tuba.

I also commonly use 15 for Eb on my CC tuba.

GregTuba79 wrote: So while pressing the 5th valve can you A) Still play low pedal notes the same fingerings like 14=Eb 124=D etc just better "flatter" in tune than without the 5th valve?

Not sure I completely understand But it looks like you are describing BBb fingerings, so 14=Eb and 124=D on a BBb tuba would be sharp. Using 54=Eb and 234=D would be much better in-tune on a BBb tuba.

Greg, If I'm reading correctly above - I think you have a CC tuba? If so, do you know what your 5th valve is tuned to?

Different tubas respond differently in the bottom octave. The accepted usage for the 5th (and 6th) valves is in the pedal octave since you don't really need them elsewhere. Fingering charts in my links are based on the (now standard) 5th valve tuned as a long whole tone (1st valve + pull). Some of the old Miraphone (Mirafone) CC tubas are built with a longer 5th valve so these charts don't apply.

Ole Miss has fingering charts with a variety of common alternate fingerings listed - http://olemiss.edu/lowbrass/charts.html.
Interestingly enough, they don't publish a F tuba chart with 6 valves. The one they publish has only 5 valves.
I've seen it said here before that F tubas with 6 valves are all so different that you just have to learn the fingerings for yourself depending on which instrument you're holding. I haven't tried F tuba so I'm not able to comment from experience, but consider that they list 4 different common fingerings for the F at the bottom of the staff (should be the open tone if it's like a BBb or CC tuba).

Central Michigan University also has fingering charts with notes about common intonation tendencies. Not all of those notes are accurate for all tubas, but most match my instrument, except for low EEb. - http://mctuba.com/studio/fingerchart/finger.php

I've seen many here post that low EEb should be played 124 on a BBb tuba to be in tune. On my BBb tuba, playing EEb with 14 is much closer to in-tune with just a little (~1/2") pull on the 4th valve or 1st valve slide. I actually struggle for pitch if I play low EEb as 124.

Every tuba is just a little different and you have to figure out the idiosyncrasies for yourself.

Blokes fingerings work really well on an independent 5th valve tuned at a lowered whole step.
My old fingers learned to know them well when I had an F with a low whole step 5th. (1970 MW)
Which is probably what most of the tubas out there today are set up with.
They are right on even when transferred to other pitch horns ex. F & CC.

However - on the dependent 5th valve - some of those options are no longer accessible.
But... there are other advantages to such a set up. The most obvious is that the tuba blows more open like a 4 valver.
Its a matter of choice.

I happen to be the happy owner of 2 BMBs (F - CC) Which correct me if I am wrong, are the only tubas presently on the market with the dependent 5th.

From that 4th valve tone the following fingering pattern works with little or no slide pulling and is actually somewhat rational.

On the F tuba
4 C
2 4 B
T 4 Bb
T 1 4 A
T 3 4 Ab
T 2 3 4 G
T 1 2 3 4 Gb

There are of course other options in that register. I particularly like the logic of how the systems descends from the 4th valve.
The horn does need to have the slides adjusted careful - particularly the 3rd. (pulled a bit)

Notice: the 5th valve - Thumb (T) only functions when the 4th valve in engaged.

These fingerings also work on an 'indepentent' 5 valve horn. But the reverse does not.

The 'dependent' fingerings transfer note for note to an independent system so there is no need to relearn anything if that was your starting point.
For instance, my cimbasso is in F with an independent 5th (Thumb) and I use the same identical fingers as on the 'dependent' F tuba.

The important thing to remember is that most of those low register fingerings are a compromise and the chops and ears need to be careful to center and hold the pitch.

http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba.html" target="_blank

3-13 should answer a lot of questions

Interesting that you're getting pedal D (not Eb like the charts suggest) with 124. It's pretty easy on my tuba with 234 and a little slide pull on 4th valve. This is why I sometimes pull 4 instead of 1 for Eb as 14 - it sets me up for the D.

I've always used 134 for Db. No slide pulling needed either. If I pulled a slide for Eb or D, I put it back for this note.

For pedal C, I've found that the false tone fingering works a little better on my current BBb tuba (I think 23, but I don't play this note often enough to remember if that's right). 1234 works better on my dad's Mack/Jinbao 210 and on his old Schneider (VMI Stencil). My dad has confirmed this too on my tuba. Either way, this note is weak for my instrument so I usually avoid it.

GregTuba79 wrote: Actually my horn is a BBb. That fingering chart on that link you furnished (as well as a Google search for BBb pedal fingerings) have all been wrong on both BB flats I have owned over the years with 4 valves. My horns have always played: E-flat=14 D=124 D-Flat=134 C= 1234 I've tried those other combos and they clearly are not the corresponding note no matter how I pitch it up or down.

I set my F up so 5th is Dr Pepper, 6th is beer.

GregTuba79 wrote: 234 is not even a D on my horn...unless you mean WITH the 5th valve depressed?

Strange. No 5th valve for that low D; just 234. It should be in-tune on most conventional 4-valve BBb tubas.

GregTuba79 wrote: My horns have always played: E-flat=14 D=124 D-Flat=134 C= 1234 I've tried those other combos and they clearly are not the corresponding note no matter how I pitch it up or down.

Kinda strange how you have a whole-tone-fingering-"break" between low D=124 and Db=134, with the 234 fingering "missing" between the half-tone-apart D-Db. I'd think D=124 would be very sharp in that register; almost an Eb.

All I can say is every tuba + player is different, and you just use what works for you. It's also good to record yourself and use a tuner every once in a while to see how things are REALLY sounding