Tech question: Microphones

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:32 am

Ok, so I have been doing some reading on the subject and came across an article that suggests Ribbon Mics as being the best for recording brass instruments, especially like the tuba. My question for those who know about this "Are they worth it?" Since most ribbon mics I have come across seem to be rather expensive. Or should I just stick to a mic such as the AT-825 stereo mic? Are there any other mics you would reccomend for use in a home "studio" setting.

I just spent some decent money on a nice Digital 8-track mixer along with Cood Edit software, but am stumped for finding the right mic to best fit my situation. Thanks for any/all adivice you may have.

NeilD · Post by **NeilD** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:50 am

Unless you are in a very demanding studio environment, producing recordings which demand the ABSOLUTE best, why not stick with the old standard SM57? Does not require phantom power, absolutely bullet proof shock resistance (the ribbons are easy to damage), very nice results and available everywhere for Cheap money. Last I looked there were several dozen on auction. I just bought a new one for $60.00. NWD

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:58 am

I think this perception of ribbon mics being the best for brass dates back to the era when the other choices were an awful sounding dynamic mic or a high fidelity condenser mic that would distort at high volume. The ribbon can handle the sound intensity of a brass instrument, and has good fidelity, however you need to know how to use its figure-8 pickup pattern. Modern condenser mics can handle the sound intensity of brass instruments just fine as long as you keep the mic at least a foot away from the bell. I found the AT-825 to be a bit cold and shrill sounding for studio-style recording, so I got a pair of cheap MXL 1" diaphragm mics for that smooth, warm sound.

-Eric

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:52 am

I am not looking to skimp....just spend my money wisely. I am not against dropping a few $$$ on a good mic, just want to be sure (pardon the pun) I am going in the right direction since the world of Microphones is way over my head.

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:09 am

I vote with NeilD.SM-57 mikes are not lo-fi.
Tubatooter1940

adam0408 · Post by **adam0408** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:07 am

I dunno a lot about this, but from my limited experience, mics will make a huge difference. Also, if you want to spend your money wisely, save the sm-57s for bass cabinets and drums. There are a lot better microphones to be had for not astronomical amounts of money.

And yes, I have recorded some bass trombone stuff with an old RCA ribbon microphone and it sounded absolutely awesome. It gave it a really warm and natural sound. I recorded it here: http://www.customrecordingstudios.com/ The guy really was able to make vocals and horns sound good, but bass and guitar-not really. But he really loved his mics and couldnt say enough about the RCA 77-DX.

This mic is old, and it will probably be difficult to track down. If you are serious about it though, ask the guy if he knows where you can get one- hes really nice.

Conclusion: Yes sm-57s are fine microphones and will probably sound good. Yes, you will notice a difference if you use a better mic. [/url]

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:05 pm

The RCA would be a great choice if you can find one and you can afford it. Mics are like anything else - you get what you pay for. One of the best deals out there is the new AKG 414 with 5 polar patterns. Street price about $800. If you afford more there are even better mics. The Neumann company makes some fantastic mics. The TLM 127 is great at about $1500 and the U87 at about $2400 is an awsome mic too. The mic is the most important thing in the recording chain. It is not the place to scrimp. There may be places in your area where you can actually listen to differnt mics and auditon them the way you would a tuba. If I can be of any help please email me.
Phil

a2ba4u · Post by **a2ba4u** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:43 pm

This post really doesn't address the issue of ribbon mics directly, but I thought that Phil made some very important points that were worth emphasizing.

"Mics are like anything else - you get what you pay for. "

If found this axiom to be PARTICULARLY accurate when dealing with mics. Truly, the best equipment will end up costing lots of money while the lousy equipment will be inexpensive, and you can ALMOST ALWAYS grade the quality of the mic (its materials, circuitry, reputation, etc.) by its price tag. *braces for flames* Random thought = if you buy any type of mic that isn't a stereo mic and you want to record in stereo, you will need to take the sticker price and double it.

"The mic is the most important thing in the recording chain."

The finished product, when recording tubas in most situations, will NEVER be "better" than the raw material that is recorded. Most of the time "classical" and "jazz" recording artists (and presumably the tuba player who originated this thread) are looking for as natural a reproduction as possible. In other words, they aren't interested in adding tons of EQ, reverb, compression, etc. to their recordings or running the raw data through amp modelers and those dastardly auto-tune plugins like the guitar players are. For tuba players, the recording is 90% done when pack up the horn at the end of the session, thus we need to make sure that we are staisfied with what the initial playback takes sound like because there won't be too much "fixing it in the mix." Summary = Phil is right.

This said, one must know how to use one's equipment when recording. You may very well own a $3000 mic, but if you don't know anything about mic placement, polar patterns, lo cut, sample rate, bit depth, or preamplification, your expensive mic is going to end up sounding like something off of the shelf at Radio Shack. Conversely, it is definitely possible to make your $400 mic sound like a more expensive one as long as you do your homework and have the mic working for you in the optimum conditions. No matter what mic you select, you will need to have an entire recording chain in mind if you want to make the best use of it.

Also, make sure your getting your advice about micing tubas from someone who understands the instrument and its sonic properties. It makes sense to say that your local studio's 17 year old knob jockey probably doesn't know a whole lot about the subject, but you may be surprised at how little pro engineers know about our instrument. Just be judicious and get a wide variety of opinions from people you know and whose work you know. Random thought #2 = the sound of a tuba is one that most engineers who work with mainstream music are regularly trying to ELIMENATE in their recordings.

I'm not going to go off on telling you which mics sound "the best" for tubas because ultimately, your ears and tastes will dictate that, but I have found that mics that make us sound good are mics that make other brass and other acoustic instruments sound good used with other good equipment in flattering spaces.

End of long, rambling post.

Kyle

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:51 am

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but here's what I've experienced.

The SM57 microphone works real well when I mic my bass cabinet. It captures the sound of the bass guitar nicely, and even my upright bass in a jazz trio, which is amplified. But when I tried it with my tuba, the sound just wasn't very natural. Maybe it's because the SM57 works best when placed in close proximity to the sound source. I put the mic on a boom and in several positions close to the bell of my tuba, but couldn't make it sound natural. It didn't work when I moved it various distances away either.

So I bit the bullet and bought a couple fairly inexpensive Behringer B5 condenser mics ($90 x 2). They require a phantom power supply which I had, but would cost at least another $50. I put them both on a boom about 12 feet from my tuba, and captured a much more realistic sound.

Tom "not sure you need a ribbon mic, but suspect that condenser mics might work better than dynamic mics" B.

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:28 am

Along with mic selection mic placement is also very important. Just as we spend hours and hours learning to play our instruments we must also spend a great deal of time learning to select and place our microphones. Mic selection and placement is the "art" of the recording craft.
Phil

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:41 am

wow I appreciate all of the great info and food for thought on this topic.... So while I am at it, here is a side question going off of your statement Phil.... How does one leanr about mic placement for a given environment is there a book/tutorial I can read or is it merely trial and error??

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:56 pm

Number 1 is your ears. That said one of the best texts out there on all things microphone is John Eargle's book that I believe is titled Microphones (I'm on the road so I can't check my copy). It is available from Focal Press (check the web). Eargle is the Daddy of them all when it comes to writing about things related to recording. He has several books out and they are all good. By the way Focal Press often runs sales of 30% off and free shipping - you might ask them. As this process goes on feel free to email me with any questions you might have.
Phil