TubeNet

My brass band section is 5/4 BBb, 3/4 BBb, an F, all of different build styles. There's a guy with bad attendence but decent playing who has the proper Eb compensator.

The section is pretty...wide. We're dealing with vast differences in response and intonation. Don't give me any "if everybody played perfect..." crap, none of us are professional and we have a lot of literature. A set of matching instruments is tempting - what could be done with a $4000-$5000 budget?

There are 6 instruments that meet the price point: Besson Eb/BBb comps, B&S 101 and 3/4, Conn 2xJ and 1xJ
Rate these combinations:

1. British compensators all the way - this is an ethnic band! 1 4v Eb needed. 1x 4v BBb or 2x 3v BBb
2. German tubas - only the best! 2, ideally 3 B&S 101 stencils. 2 of the cute VMI 3/4 tubas covering the Eb part
3. Bigger is better - this is America! - Conn 2xJs hold down the fort. Nimble Conn 1xJs cover the Eb part.
4. British-American hybrid section may be compatible - Besson BBb plus Conn 1xJ

For most amateurs like me, changing tubas is going to cause only a minor change in timbre. Different tubas feel very different, but they don't sound that different to your audience. The player behind the horn makes a much bigger difference. When I switched from an inexpensive Chinese BBb to an expensive German CC, nobody in either orchestra I play with noticed. It turns out I sound like me no matter what horn I'm playing.

Also, compared to smaller instruments like trumpets, every tuba has challenging pitch issues and an astonishing flexibility to lip notes up or down. Even if you all got matching compensators to minimize pitch problems, you'd still have to listen very carefully to play in tune with each other and the band and to address the volume and attack differences as a section.

Nevertheless, if I were trying to minimize pitch and timbre differences, I think it would be hard to beat an all-compensator section. If the weight of BBb compensators was an issue, I'd look into non-compensating tubas with relatively minor pitch quirks like King 2341s or Miraphone 187s.

New tubas are probably not the first step in correcting "vast differences in response and intonation".

I think your remedy would be an expensive experiment that won't solve the problem, and could result in a collection of tubas of a type wanted by none of the musicians.

Sorry, I know this isn't the response you were hoping for.

Hup

TheGoyWonder wrote:
3. Bigger is better - this is America! - Conn 2xJs hold down the fort. Nimble Conn 1xJs cover the Eb part.

Heck, skip this whole silver plated English foolishness altogether and go Sousaphones, 76 Trombones, and Stars and Stripes Forever!!

The Fountain City Brass Band (Kansas City) uses all matching low brass and claims that is the key to their success.

I play in a less than famous brass band (yet pretty good) and we have a Cerveny 6/4 BBb, my Miraphone 1291 5V BBb, and Alexander 4/4 BBb, a Conn 3V front-action Eb, and a Conn 4V top-action Eb.... quite a variety of horns. I think we sound pretty good together but we also have been together for a couple years with the same players. Some of us have changed horns. I never know until I leave for rehearsal which horn I will take but generally use the Miraphone for concerts/competition.

You said not to use the 'if everyone played perfectly argument' but I have to disagree with you. Rehearsals and sections are the only thing that will bring your section together. ... regardless of what horns you are playing. Further... someone has to take charge of the section and the others be willing to listen.

@tuben & TubaTinker: Those look like very good section lineups, using the British-American compatibility theory, similar-size compatibility theory, and assuming that the Alex players are just awesome. You are fortunate to have no F tuba in contention.

The money is already there, the band just tied it up on one super nice tuba. It was a sweetheart deal, just not the most practical.
We're not going to rehearse more than once weekly. Sectional time is mostly spent re-arranging parts so we only ever have one player playing a non-root in a divisi and sending low Eb parts to a Bb player or deciding whether to put more players on a low note or bunt and take it up. Brassband writing is goofy.

If a near-optimal instrument set equals a couple hundred hours of collective practice/rehearsal time I'd say it was easily worth it.

The Eb part is such an oddity...should it be a separate voice from the BBb, or should it reinforce it? Seems that they don't actually go so high a 3/4 BBb player couldn't nail it, and then contribute in the unison as well. Does anybody do that?

My bigger concern than key would be the mix of contrabass and bass tubas, and within that, having the appropriate size tubas. That 3/4 BBb might be a little anemic for the section, depending on the strength of the 5/4 BBb player (and even then, depending on the group, the 3/4 might not be enough).

The problem with band-owned instruments is that lack of familiarity with the instrument. I'm doubtful you're going to have immediate great results unless each player is playing an instrument that they know very well. And some people learn much quicker than others, so that could take a while.

For $4,000 to $5,000, I think you can get at most 2 instruments out of that. Get one proper BBb and one proper Eb and see where that goes.

FWIW, it's been a while since I've seen a brass band in the US that has a proper bass section. I'm not sure it matters for our Yankee ears!

Yes, I'm certain that's exactly what happens.

Taking a small portion of your budget to hire a good instructor to work with the section would be the first thing I would try.

tuben wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:The Fountain City Brass Band (Kansas City) uses all matching low brass and claims that is the key to their success.

Right....... and the years they didn't win some (pointless) competition, did they blame their matching instruments?

The thing to do then is go over the instruments, looking for match issues. Perhaps they need to all be within a certain serial number range, for example. Maintained by the same technician, using the same valve washers and stuff ... Mouthpieces of course. There's got to be some explanation.

In the brass band I play in, we have an HB-2 and 188 on the BBb part, and a York compensating Eb, PT-10P (me), and a firebird playing the Eb part. We blend nicely.

The 3+1 compensating instruments have a really unique sound, and one that fits the brass band repertoire really well. I really admire the bass section of the fountain city brass band for using them and for the wonderful thick and rich sound they get with them which is EXTREMELY distinctive. Listening to the five championship bands at NABBA 2015, in which there are really excellent tuba players in every band, fountain city's section sound really stood out.

And if you plan to do any international contesting, at any level, it may be expected (or even in the rule book in some cases!) that you have the right tubas.

That said, if you are dealing with less-than-championship quality players, it may not make as big a dent. Furthermore, there are some practical problems:

1. american tuba players generally don't like 3+1 piston layout. I (as a euphonium player) swear that it's better -- easier and much better technical facility possible, but if the players are not willing to do some serious practicing with it to gain coordination, that's a problem.
2. ergonomics of these instruments can be challenging compared to German and American-style instruments.
3. intonation tendencies are different than people are used to.
4. most players have been playing CC so long they are no longer comfortable with BBb fingerings.
5. If you did get a set of 4 or 5 and lent them out to certain players who put in the time to get comfortable on them, are you going to have to start from scratch when you get subs or new players in the section?

You aren't going to find a set of 4 or 5 Besson, Yamaha Neo, Miraphone Ambassador, Willson TA-series or similar for $4000-$6000, though. You're probably not going to find a single tuba from those makers, used or new, for those prices.

I'm not a tuba player, but as a championship-level band manager I have looked into the Chinese offerings from Wessex and JP-Sterling and found them to be decent. Still not inexpensive enough to get a whole set for the kind of prices you are looking at, though.

Getting all new horns is not going to help your situation, just waste money. A more cost-effective route would be to make sure the horns you have don't have any leaks or problems.

Then, I would look at mouthpieces. It's a much cheaper investment and can help just as much (if not more) than trying to wrestle with new horns.

Sounds like I need more money and more time. Too easy an answer.
I think you can do pretty well for $1200 a horn...you can by a CAR for that much.
Look at what 3 valve Bessons have sold for lately, that leaves enough for moderate dent removal and a basic piston replating job.
You give up the super-low notes, but most of those are buried by tympani anyways. Even a hardass judge probably wouldn't care if you took them up.

Nobody likes the all-german lineup idea? What about using 3/4 BBbs on the Eb part? (1/4 the price and better low range)

I don't mind a German lineup; a proper bass to contrabass mix is the most important thing.

From reading this, and without offence, I'd say your first issue is learning the roles of the parts!

EEb part should be distinctive to the BBb, they are sometimes very different roles. An EEb should never have to "bolster" a BBb part, the BBb's are the foundation of any good Brass Band. The EEb's are the icing on the cake, the bridge between the Euphoniums and the BBb. Dipping between both sides of that fence.

Get the dynamics of your section correct, with a good balance of octaves and tuning, and instrument types should be irrelevant.

As a Brass Band player, and I suppose "purist", I'd love to see bands that really want to emulate the British sound on 4 x 3+1 compensators, but I realise as a hobby (for all of us) money is short and we have to make do!

I'd love to get over your side of the pond to work with some Brass Band bass sections, it's a very niche subject and probably the only one I'm good at!

This is my short comment on a long subject. The difference between a British Brass band and and amateur North American brass band seems to be the sound concept. In the UK, where they grow up with the mellow sound in their mind, there is much more blend between the whole of the band. In North America, even in the great bands, the blend is sometimes limited to the sections. For example, the four tubas might blend together, but they aren't supporting the euphs and tenor horns...etc...

The thing I hate the most in a brass band, is when a schmuck shiws up with his BBb and only wants to read the EEb bass part as it's the easiest to read. I have yet to hear a player do this who convinvced me that this was a valuable option?

YMMV

As an American who spent a year on BBb with Fairey's and later EEb with the Chicago Brass Band, I wholeheartedly agree with Andy's comments about 'learning your role' and 'getting the dynamics right'. We obviously played matched 3+1 Besson's during my time at Fairey's and while that helped amongst the BBb's and the EEb's, what was more important was that everyone knew their role in the band and how to balance their dynamics between the BBb's and EEb's.

With the Chicago Brass Band, they play a mix of BBb's, CC's, EEb's and F's. Having to adjust to different tuning and timbres is difficult but where we found success was getting everyone on the same page with....wait for it....knowing your role and how to balance the section.

Having a unified concept of sound and playing in tune as a section goes a lot further than fancy new instruments.

Josh

As a former member and occasional sub in Chicago Brass Band, I really like Josh's response.

AndyCat wrote:As a Brass Band player, and I suppose "purist", I'd love to see bands that really want to emulate the British sound on 4 x 3+1 compensators, but I realise as a hobby (for all of us) money is short and we have to make do!

Andy has a good point.

How "specialized" are these horns; that is, who plays a big 3+1 compensating BBb outside of brass band?

Even more targeted: who gets paid for playing a big 3+1 compensating BBb outside of brass bands (or their near-equivalent such as River City BB)?

Here's a real tell-taler: If one wants to play in all ensembles that call for contrabass tuba (including orchestras), is there anyone who actually uses a big 3+1 compensating BBb for everything? If you can afford the expense of owning multiple contrabass tubas (along with whatever bass tuba requirements your repertoire demands), you're not among the majority.

HARMONIC COMPLEXITY: There is yet one more issue, albeit a rather fine point. In the British Brass Band, the instruments are all either in Eb or Bb and as such their harmonics are much different than say a tuba section with a BBb, CC, Eb and F.

From a top competitive british brass band, there will be a unique blend or locking of harmonics with just Eb and Bb basses and even a tighter sound if they are of the same design that being compensation, top action & bell up etc. etc. etc. .

On the other hand, a section with all 4 keys (as mentioned above - and played by sensitive players) will have a more complex mix of harmonics and the sound will not be quite the same as all Ebs and Bbs. (I am assuming that the playing field is level and that balance and intonation are not the issues)

I bring this up since this is precisely the scenario I deal with as conductor of the Great Western Rocky Mountain Brass Band. We also use F horns. (I know you Brits think us crazy)

The blend is unique, I would say nothing really like a British Brass Band, but then we are Americans and have a totally different perspective on brass playing that is natural for us.

We do not try in any sense to emulate the Brits. I don't think we could do it better than they. But we do have an extremely high professional standard of playing. There are times when I listen to the group and almost think I am hearing a great symphony orchestra. That I believe is in part due to a greater mix of harmonics. Our players also are quite good at tone color shadings and will often times lean toward a string sound or woodwind lyrical playing. My sections are like small bands of chameleons.

My point is that in lieu of having all the Eb/Bb trapping of a true BBB, alternative stylistic elements are available and valid. However, if you wish to be identified as a BBB and compete as such, then "when in Rome ...."

Paul (who is a Yankee through and through and would rather drink a pint of bitters like a Brit than try to sound like one) Maybery.