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Sorry, Joe, but the video didn't seem to clarify your comment, maybe I missed something? Love the playing on the vid though. If you have some philosophy about buzzing that isn't popular I wouldn't sweat it. About 2 years ago over the course of 2 consecutive days in warm up master classes, I heard 2 different famous teachers (I mean absolute legends in the euphonium world, names that everyone would likely put in their all time top 5) say the following (these are verbatim quotes):

Teacher 1: "you need to do the same warm up every day"

Teacher 2: "never do the same warm up 2 days in a row"

That's really interesting...I've never encountered anyone to my knowledge that has their lips touching when buzzing the mouthpiece. In fact, I'm not sure I could actually buzz on the mouthpiece with them touching. I think most teachers I know would agree with you that the lips touching would be a bad thing.

Hey,
They get alot of students though and the students do well. Maybe it should be that a good teacher will find out what exercises/methods ( physically and mentally )will work for the student so that the student can achieve consistent success. Take what you can from each teacher you study with. Then you can formulate your own warm ups that you are comfortable with.

Totally agree, there are numerous paths to success.

Every teacher I have studied with has said that mouthpiece buzzing and playing on the horn should be done the same way, or else there is no point in the buzz. They have been very specific to ensure that when I buzzed, the only difference that existed was the lack of resistance that the horn provided. If the buzzing technique and the playing technique are not the same, then you will hinder your progression. I mean I too have little "cred" compared to a lot of others on here, but my teachers really knew their stuff. I often did (and still do) buzz on the mouthpiece and then insert and remove it from the horn.

I think the big difference is his idea of mouthpiece buzzing sounding "beautiful." It shouldn't. It should seem "unfocused," meaning that the pitch is there but not the center of what's being heard, and airy because that will produce a more focused sound on the horn. At least, this is what I have always been taught, have taught, and have seen work countless times.

So, I think that the buzzing technique in the video is wrong and should not be done, but not buzzing itself.

I never saw the point in buzzing unless the instrument you typically play simply isn't there.

If I'm in the room with a tuba, I'm playing the tuba, not buzzing!!

What a great demonstration of this concept! I agree completely, I have never found mouthpiece buzzing to be helpful/useful, I don't encourage my students to do it, and I don't do it myself. When students come to me and ask about it, I always tell them my experience and then tell them to decide for themselves. There are plenty of great players on both sides of this fence so the best a student can do is test for themselves to see which approach works best for them.

I haven't watched the video, but I can tell you that Winston Morris, who is no slouch as a teacher, has no use for mouthpiece buzzing.

While I don't agree that buzzing the mouthpiece may be harmful as Lindberg suggests, it may be counterproductive for the strict purpose that he approaches: making a beautiful sound. This I do agree with.

Arguably you could say that the mouthpiece is an instrument in itself, but one so radically different from mouthpiece plus tuba/trombone/whatever that practicing it alone serves only a narrow purpose.

So the question then becomes why buzz the mouthpiece at all. I do it not because I am trying to make a beautiful sound on it, but because I am trying to "wake up" my breathing to the idea of moving more air than I do sitting at rest. Only takes a few seconds to do this and then I move on to the horn. I suppose you could say that this can be done without buzzing, but for me it makes a smoother transition from a non-playing state to a playing (and sounding good) state. Time to test a few things out I guess. I'm not a pro or a teacher so it probably doesn't matter what I think too much.

In short, if you buzz the mouthpiece make sure you are not doing it for the wrong reasons. Thanks for posting the video.

Something is wrong if your lips touch while buzzing. It should be exactly the same feeling as on the horn. I'm wondering, bloke, if you ever tried a visualizer in the receiver, so you're buzzing only in exactly the same position as full playing. Besides, a visualizer is the only way to really see if the lips are touching, or if you're completely nuts.

Thinking about it a bit more, subconsciously the lips touching is likely a way of compensating for lack of resistance. ..trying to save air.

bloke wrote: CUT TO 6:03 in the video, or this post makes no sense at all:
========================================
I *completely* agree with this man, but (having little "cred") *always* am shouted down on internet discussion lists.

CUT TO 6:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D796wn5uvtw

First of all, to each his own and as someone pointed out previously, there are many paths to achieve success. Also, any practice technique, if performed improperly, can be detrimental. Those caveats aside, I have a few rather strong feelings on this particular subject. As a side note, I have particularly strong feelings regarding the benefits of buzzing on the mouthpiece. I injured my upper lip while in grad school, suffering both muscular and nerve damage. Thanks to the correct use of buzzing on the mouthpiece alone, I was able to overcome this injury and sound better today than I have in my entire life. So there's another anecdote in favor of buzzing to consider.

In my opinion, the demonstration in the video proves nothing. It is anecdotal evidence at best. Granted, in the first demo, where he buzzes and then puts the MP into the receiver, the note does not sound very good. However, since he is trying to make a specific point, he is very likely allowing his subconscious to create a poor sound. It is entirely the opposite of what Arnold Jacobs teaches in the Song aspect of Song and Wind. The second demo, where he plays and slowly removes the MP is simple physics. As he removes the MP, he loses any back pressure provided by the instrument, and the vibration ceases. So what?

The purposes (and advantages) of practicing on the MP alone (or a rim alone for that matter) are multiple. First, it provides a direct link from the mind to the lip. In order to play a specific note, the lips must vibrate at that frequency. On the MP alone, if we are even slightly off pitch, we hear it immediately, and through trial and error, quickly learn how to sing the correct pitch with the lips acting as vocal chords. This teaches us to play on the center of the pitch, which is where the note will be the most resonant and sound the best. Because of the physics of a brass instrument and the principle of sympathetic resonance, if we buzz slightly off pitch, the note will either not resonate in the instrument, or it will sound bad and out of tune because it is off center. With what is basically a three valve instrument, there is no way we can produce a three or four octave range by simply pressing buttons. We have to develop the ability to cause the lips to act like vocal chords and sing the pitches with the lips. Buzzing on the mouthpiece is a very efficient way to learn how to do this.

Second, getting the lips to vibrate on the rim or mouthpiece alone is more difficult than on the instrument due to the reduced back pressure. Therefore, if we can learn to buzz on the MP alone, this skill becomes easier on the tuba. By learning to get the most resonant buzz possible on the mouthpiece alone, this is then transferred to the instrument much more easily. The more resonant the buzz, the greater the amplitude of vibration we are getting, and the more tissue we have vibrating, all of which improves the sound on the instrument.

Finally, and this may be the most important aspect, is that buzzing on the mouthpiece introduces strangeness, which can be invaluable when trying to overcome problems in our playing. When we have the horn in our hands, it becomes a strong psychological stimulus due to the years of developing the conditioned responses we have accumulated as habits. Now, it is not possible to play well without having developed conditioned responses to stimuli. If the conditioned responses represent good habits, then fine and dandy. However, we all have some kind of problems associated with our playing, and these conditioned responses are reinforced when we pick up the instrument. Since we can't unlearn old habits, we will need to develop new habits that replace them. Then, as the old habits are used less, the neural pathways wither and the new neural pathways for the more helpful habits become stronger until they are dominant. When we introduce strangeness by playing on the mouthpiece, we eliminate the stimulus represented by the instrument, and it is often much easier to develop the new, more helpful habits.

In an attempt to counter the anecdotal evidence from the Lindbergh video, here is one by Chris Olka stating the opposite view. In it he discusses his lessons with Arnold Jacobs where he told Mr. Jacobs that he didn't see the value of practicing on the mouthpiece because he didn't play the same way on it as he did on the tuba. He said that Mr. Jacobs humbly submitted to him that if what he was doing on the tuba was different than what he was doing on the mouthpiece, then what he was doing on the tuba was WRONG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk9A0vAwWBo" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

One last note that was prompted by re-watching this Chris Olka video regarding feel. Yes, buzzing on the mouthpiece alone will feel different than when we play on the tuba. However, this was something that Mr. Jacobs was adamant about - We do not play by feel. In order to sing with the lips, we must send impulses to the lips using the motor nerves. When we analyze how the lips feel when playing, these sensations are being transmitted to the brain via sensory nerves. The nerves are one way streets with motor nerves sending statements out and sensory nerves sending messages in. The problem is that the same area of the brain controls both aspects, issuing statements and asking questions. Therefore, if we are focused on feel, we cannot be effective in issuing statements, and when that happens, the lips can either vibrate the wrong pitch or refuse to vibrate at all.

I realize that this post will not likely change the minds of those who share the same opinion as the OP. However, for those who are not familiar with the value of buzzing on the mouthpiece, hopefully this will provide food for thought so you can do some research and make up your own minds.

For additional research, these videos by Mike Grose are extremely valuable. There is a very interesting story (yet another anecdote) in the Dee Stewart interview. He said that he was buzzing his mouthpiece backstage shortly after joining the Philadelphia Orchestra. A more senior member of the brass section told him not to do that, it wasn't good for him and they didn't do that in the Philadelphia Orchestra. Fast forward years later when Stewart was on tour with Summit Brass. They got off the bus at the venue for that evening's concert, and pretty soon, all 30 players were buzzing on their mouthpieces. He remarked how times had certainly changed.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TubaPeopleTV" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I will apologize in advance if this post seems too harsh. For the reasons stated above, I have very strong feelings about the benefits of buzzing on the mouthpiece, and I sometimes get too heated in my defense of the poractice. No offense is intended toward anyone who may have a different opinion.

bloke wrote:The *only* times I've done this has been with some artificial resistance (that makes buzzing the mouthpiece feel somewhat like "playing a tuba" rather than "playing the entire earth's atmosphere").

With artificial resistance (perhaps: blocking off 50% or more of the hole in the back of the mouthpiece), mouthpiece buzzing can BOTH
- sort-of feel like "playing a tuba" (with the lips *apart*, and not mashed against each other), and
- allow for the player to check the accuracy of the frequencies (pitches) of their buzzing.

This is a very good idea, Bloke. In his book, To Buzz, Alessandro Fossi recommends putting the MP into a plastic tube approximately 10 CM in length (or longer) in order create some back pressure. It can also be helpful to attach the tube to an Inspiron in order to see how much air we are using by making the little ball rise in the chamber. I personally find 10 CM to be the ideal length. In the videos, Fossi is using one about twice that length. For me, this causes interference or feedback as I move into the upper middle register, defeating the purpose. However, 20 CM or longer is very helpful in the extreme low register.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-Ubboh0Uw" target="_blank

It doesn't make sense to me that lips would vibrate the same with and without the tuba, and mine sure don't. For me, without tuba, the way I have to play, I think my lips are closer together and it feels more buzzy, but I don't think my lips really touch, at least not all the way across the embouchure.

I'm not sure how to read the above rather long post. In places, it seems like the point is not that we play the same either way, it's just a valuable exercise and maybe the better for being different (e.g., "As he removes the MP, he loses any back pressure provided by the instrument, and the vibration ceases. So what?") But later we're back to if it's different then you're playing the tuba wrong. I don't see how it could physically possibly be anything but different, but I didn't take lessens from Arnold Jacobs.

Donn wrote:It doesn't make sense to me that lips would vibrate the same with and without the tuba, and mine sure don't. For me, without tuba, the way I have to play, I think my lips are closer together and it feels more buzzy, but I don't think my lips really touch, at least not all the way across the embouchure.

I'm not sure how to read the above rather long post. In places, it seems like the point is not that we play the same either way, it's just a valuable exercise and maybe the better for being different (e.g., "As he removes the MP, he loses any back pressure provided by the instrument, and the vibration ceases. So what?") But later we're back to if it's different then you're playing the tuba wrong. I don't see how it could physically possibly be anything but different, but I didn't take lessens from Arnold Jacobs.

Hi Donn. The feel is different due to the differences in back pressure. However, what is the same is that, in order for the lips to vibrate, we must send a message to the lips from the brain instructing them to vibrate. In this aspect, playing a brass instrument is similar to singing. The vibration (of the vocal chords and the lips) is a response to a stimulus. Mr. Jacobs used to say that the lips are not wooden reeds, which vibrate in response to air blowing across them. The lips do not have to vibrate just because we blow air across them. In fact, the lips can resist the air flow and not vibrate at all. The lips vibrate in response to the stimulus from the brain, and this is the same on the mouthpiece alone or on the tuba.

bloke wrote:not particularly seeking any assistance...I seem to be able to plod along with things as they are...

...and there's no real need to shout me down. Again, I openly admit that very few agree with me...

...I just finally found someone who does.

I get it. No worries. Again, my apologies of I expressed my views too vehemently. As I said, I have very strong feelings about this subject and the Lindberg video must have touched a nerve (or it is that time of the month for me).

Very interesting dialog. Much learned from both sides. Having studied with Mr. Jacobs, I tend to fall into the MP buzz side of things. After buzzing I find my tone richer and more centered to my own ears, not to mention that respiration gets pumped a bit) I get similar results from using a practice or silencer mute. These things do help me. Others I am sure have their own routines for getting their chops to work.

Jacobs also drove home to me that what he told me about buzzing, and that I in particular (back in 1972) needed about 30 minutes daily, was not a general prescription for everyone. Just like a Doctor does not write the same script for all his patients.

The point made about "strangeness" I believe to be very valid, especially to those who enjoy pondering the psyco/neuro side of brass playing. Jacobs certainly addressed those issues in my lessons. Removing a stimulus that prompts us to resort to a less than optimal habit is a good self-educational tool or method. The goal being to keep tweaking one's playing toward an ideal which we store in our head somewhere. I agree, habits can not be removed, but need to be replaced and the desired one continually reinforced. Our own ability to take corrective or remedial actions is of course a plus. I suppose I could admit that I could be my own 'best teacher' - but I would rather assume that then the student (ME) could also be a 'fool.'

I have often made and also have heard reference to 'mouthpiece' solfeggi. I find I play my absolute best when I have time to get the inner ear in sync with the buzz and am able to sound the melodic idea without having the horn interfere. Then, the mp goes into the tuba, and I repeat the same process as close as possible, and am rather satisfied that the results are about as musically artistic as can get for this old geezer.

The goal of course is to play without having to think heavily on such things. The poor brain has enough work to do. We need to be able to relax and sing out beautiful music on our horns.

One of the reasons I enjoy Tubenet and log on almost every day is that I continually learn from many of you certain things that ordinarily would not have crossed my mind. So Bloke, Martin, Jay and company - much appreciation for speaking your minds on this issue. This for me has been one of the most insightful posts in some time.

happyroman wrote:However, what is the same is that, in order for the lips to vibrate, we must send a message to the lips from the brain instructing them to vibrate. In this aspect, playing a brass instrument is similar to singing. The vibration (of the vocal chords and the lips) is a response to a stimulus. Mr. Jacobs used to say that the lips are not wooden reeds, which vibrate in response to air blowing across them. The lips do not have to vibrate just because we blow air across them. In fact, the lips can resist the air flow and not vibrate at all. The lips vibrate in response to the stimulus from the brain, and this is the same on the mouthpiece alone or on the tuba.

It's kind of interesting to read about operation of the vocal chords. Or as we'd call them these days it appears, vocal folds. "Vocal reeds" apparently has been accepted usage, too.

wikipedia wrote: The larynx is a major (but not the only) source of sound in speech, generating sound through the rhythmic opening and closing of the vocal folds. To oscillate, the vocal folds are brought near enough together such that air pressure builds up beneath the larynx. The folds are pushed apart by this increased subglottal pressure, with the inferior part of each fold leading the superior part. Under the correct conditions, this oscillation pattern will sustain itself. In essence, sound is generated in the larynx by chopping up a steady flow of air into little puffs of sound waves.

The perceived pitch of a person's voice is determined by a number of different factors, most importantly the fundamental frequency of the sound generated by the larynx. The fundamental frequency is influenced by the length, size, and tension of the vocal folds. This frequency averages about 125 Hz in an adult male, 210 Hz in adult females, and over 300 Hz in children. ...

The vocal folds generate a sound rich in harmonics. The harmonics are produced by collisions of the vocal folds with themselves, by recirculation of some of the air back through the trachea, or both. Some singers can isolate some of those harmonics in a way that is perceived as singing in more than one pitch at the same time—a technique called overtone singing or throat singing.

No mention is made here of stimulus from the brain, but of course anything we consciously control, we do so via stimulus from the brain, that's a given. But just as with brass playing, it's done by catching that subglottal pressure at a certain point where the elastic vocal folds resonate, just like a reed really.

It's interesting to see how similar it really is, to what seems to happen with the lips in a brass instrument - and it's interesting to read elsewhere in the same "vocal folds" article, that the tissue here changes a lot, I mean very significant physiological changes, between a baby's larynx and a fully developed voice generator - partly in response to mechanical stimulation, i.e. (I think) we develop our voices by physical training that significantly changes the vocal fold tissue. And I suppose likewise for lip tissue.

bloke wrote:I *completely* agree with this man, but (having little "cred") *always* am shouted down on internet discussion lists.

Thanks for posting this, Bloke.

I'm just a has-been nobody, but I have never felt that mouthpiece buzzing was useful (for me, at least). In fact, I've always felt like some sort of a slouch for not doing it as part of my practice routine.

bloke wrote: I believe this is where there may be the most disagreement. I (and perhaps Lindberg guy...??) believe that our lips are VIBRATING when we play, whereas some others may perceive that lips are BUZZING (against each other) as we play.

When I was younger, I would experiment by taking the horn away from my mouth while playing a note, just to see how "strong" the "buzz" was, only to be disappointed that there was no audible buzz of any kind whatever. I eventually just rationalized this by telling myself that I must have some sort of "freak" embouchure that produces tones without a "buzz".

Wonder if everyone would be happy with

• It isn't really the same, so of course your lips/breath/etc have to adapt.
• it works anyway.

Like ... swimmers sometimes use small swim fins, to work on leg technique. I only swim by accident myself, but as I understand it, good swimming technique involves a sort of coordination of whole body with the hips and legs, and fins immediately put the legs into focus as a driving force so you can get the feel for the whole system. When you get to the competition, of course you're going to have to hit the water with no fins, and of course you'd want plenty of practice without fins, but the fin practice is worth the cost of adaptation.

That doesn't mean everyone needs to get fins in order to learn to swim well, it's just one non-controversial (I think) aid to learning, that might work better for some people than others depending on individual strengths. Like mouthpiece buzzing - if only we could get rid of the notion that it's really just exactly like playing the tuba, which throws people off since it obviously is not.

Here's what Mr Jacobs said about buzzing including his story about "spin the bottle"
http://www.windsongpress.com/mouthpiece ... %20CCM.mp4