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Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:46 pm
by EMC
Both my Alexander's seem to leak air from one or two of the slides and I'm wondering how exactly does something like that effect my sound intonation and all that? They both play great as they are but still I do plan to get this problem fixed soon.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:15 pm
by sousaphone68
A simple experiment with a thick lubricant eg petroleum jelly will answer your question for you.
You could try sealing the leaky slides have a toot and see if it improves intonation response etc if it does then you will know if its worth having a tech correct the leaks.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:51 pm
by Dan Schultz
If you want an idea of how even a small leak somewhere in the valve section.... just open a waterkey a bit. Consider that even that small hole is probably equal to a couple thousanths of an inch clearance around a slide or piston.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:12 pm
by EMC
TubaTinker wrote:If you want an idea of how even a small leak somewhere in the valve section.... just open a waterkey a bit. Consider that even that small hole is probably equal to a couple thousanths of an inch clearance around a slide or piston.
You make a good point.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:19 pm
by UDELBR
I find opening the water key will showcase what a leak does on SOME notes, but not on all notes. FYI...
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 9:17 pm
by Dan Schultz
UncleBeer wrote:I find opening the water key will showcase what a leak does on SOME notes, but not on all notes. FYI...
Well.... IF there is a node for those particular notes at or near the waterkey location... it will great exasperate the ability to center those notes. However... an open (or even partially open) waterkey will cause some problem with all notes.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:19 am
by dave_matheson
The handyman's secret weapon will cure this leaky air problem ... DUCT TAPE !!
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3747/1128 ... 7d16_b.jpg
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:37 am
by EMC
dave_matheson wrote:The handyman's secret weapon will cure this leaky air problem ... DUCT TAPE !! lol I can't even remember how many times we had to duct tape our sousaohones during marching season, especially with the crappy repairs that were done to them,
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3747/1128 ... 7d16_b.jpg
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:59 am
by hup_d_dup
TubaTinker wrote:
Well.... IF there is a node for those particular notes at or near the waterkey location... it will great exasperate the ability to center those notes. However... an open (or even partially open) waterkey will cause some problem with all notes.
Maybe there is something about a water key that in and of itself causes problems when open. A baroque trumpet has holes (vents) that are meant to be open on various notes. When a vent is open there is a slight change in sound, but it's not necessarily a problem.
Of course a leak should be fixed . . . just saying that a open water key may not accurately simulate a leak.
Hup
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 6:50 pm
by hup_d_dup
When I saw the subject I thought it meant air leaking past the embouchure at the sides of the mouthpiece (seriously).
By the way, how does that affect your playing?
Hup
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 7:43 pm
by PaulMaybery
Maybe its the comparative size of the instrument or the placement of the water key in relation to nodes, but I sense no difference on my BMB CC BAT when the main slide water key is open or closed. (please - no wise-*** comments on my tone) On the other hand the lower 4th valve slide on my piston F had loose tolerances and until I had it remedied had a very unresonant tone. Expanding the tenon solved the problem. Someplaces are more critical than others.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:53 pm
by UDELBR
PaulMaybery wrote: I sense no difference on my BMB CC BAT when the main slide water key is open or closed.
Try again while playing various notes. I think you'll find some notes REALLY suffer, while for others it's barely noticeable.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:17 pm
by PaulMaybery
NUP! No difference.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:22 pm
by PaulMaybery
But it is a Saturn water key and probably does not open all that much.
Which brings up another issue in that it seems to take an 'eternity' to empty compared to old lever & cork water key.
Anyone else have ideas on the ideal water key?
OK, it's Sunday and not a lot of activity here on TUBENET.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:25 pm
by Donn
I've had intermittent problems that turned out to be a water key, where the problem would go away after playing for a few minutes. That few minutes is how long it took for some water to collect in the hole, and effectively plug it for acoustic purposes.
So yeah, a gob of grease on the slide should answer the question.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:26 pm
by EMC
bloke wrote:I'm just relieved - once I clicked on the thread - to discover that the topic is leaking INSTRUMENTS and *not* leaking digestive tracts.
Beavis wrote:heh-heh...You said "relieved".
HA!!
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:28 pm
by EMC
PaulMaybery wrote:NUP! No difference.
That's interesting, perhaps your water key is tiny ? On my Alex if I hold the water key open the over all sound of the entire instrument basically shrinks.
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:13 pm
by Dan Schultz
EMC wrote:PaulMaybery wrote:NUP! No difference.
That's interesting, perhaps your water key is tiny ? On my Alex if I hold the water key open the over all sound of the entire instrument basically shrinks.
Or maybe there's a HORRIBLE leak somewhere else!
Re: Air leaks, how do they effect your playing?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:05 pm
by PaulMaybery
To answer that question Joe, it does drain, I even examined and cleaned the Saturn, blew through it on a pressure test and it does function. There is no blockage. The Saturn engineering involves a small ss ball sitting over the drill hole. When articulated, it is raised a bit to allow water to drain, but I noticed that to be only 2 or 3 mm, which does not seem to be enough to interfere with the resonance of the horn as would a wide open standard water key. The Saturn WK came on the tuba as it was customized by the owner previous to me. I would not install them in the future. While in theory they are a cool invention, probably acoustically a tiny bit better than a standard key, on my tuba at least they drain entirely too slowly. It is positioned directly over the original hole and lines up just fine. Perhaps Saturn might look into creating a larger version for tuba to accommodate more condensation.
But we have two issues going on here in this thread (leakage and water key issues) and I apologize for the digression.
