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Didn't want to clutter up the other thread, but is this a tenor tuba or a euphonium?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=64342" target="_blank

tomato or tomato?

Holst was once asked what the difference between and tenor tuba and a euphonium was, and he answered, "a tenor tuba is a euphonium without all that silly vibrato".

There are those who call a 3+1 upright piston instrument a euphonium, but if it has rotary valves they call it a tenor tuba. If we did this with tubas the only real tubas would be rotary, and all the piston tubas would be called something else, maybe brass bass or whatever. But we don't do this we call all conical bore brass basses tubas no matter the kind of valves or which way the bell faces. Even a sousaphone is still known to be a type of tuba.

Is it a violin or a fiddle? So generally in Bands they will be called euphonium and in orchestra tenor tuba, and yes in English speaking countries they re more likely to be 3+1 pistons and in Germanic countries more likely to be rotary, but still the same rose family,no matter the name. Baritones a smaller bore and bell version of the same.

bloke wrote:"Tubas" only have rotary valves, whereas "sousaphones" only have piston valves.

"Euph", being a prefix, probably doesn't have any valves.

If you're following my tenor, you probably should not be.

Thanks. Finally SOMEBODY understood my question!!!

I sing Barelytone.

Isn't that Cerveny's upright model of the Kaiser Baryton ?
I vaguely recollect their catalog used to call it an ideal Bydlo horn for players of 5-valve tubas.

There really is no such thing as a tenor tuba. A lot of the music that was marked "tenor tuba" was originally intended for tenor Wagner tuba and performance practice evolved to the point that it was typically played on the German-style baryton. (Strauss tone poems, Janacek) It is not uncommon to see German orchestras use the traditional oval-shaped baryton (or even a British-style euphonium) for these. I don't think I've ever heard of one of the straight-bell rotary valve instruments being used in Germany.

Holst wrote tenor tuba at the top of the part in the Planets, but clearly he was thinking of a euphonium -- and the instrument that was used in the first performance has been preserved and is absolutely a euphonium. Same with a lot of the other 20th century British orchestral literature that has two tuba parts.

That's not to say there haven't been tuba family members made in 9' Bb or 8' C, like the Bb bass saxhorn or the French tuba in C, but it wasn't really common (although not unheard of) to call these "tenor tuba".

What ended up happening is some of the European manufacturers made a straight-bell rotary valved baritone/baryton for use in Spanish banda music. American orchestral tuba players, noting the similarity in shape of these instruments to the German rotary-valve tuba, started buying them to cover Bydlo and other occasional "tenor tuba" duties. The manufacturers, noting that they were suddenly selling more of their niche banda music models encouraged this, and in some cases even adapted the instruments somewhat with a bigger leadpipe, etc.

If you like your straight bell rotary "tenor tuba" that's great -- some of them are outstanding playing instruments -- but don't get snooty thinking that it is *the* correct orchestral tenor tuba, as the euphonium or the oval baryton have just as strong (if not stronger) a claim on the title.

bbocaner wrote: don't get snooty

OK.

bbocaner wrote: I don't think I've ever heard of one of the straight-bell rotary valve instruments being used in Germany.

A few months ago I was reading about saxhorns and the oval instruments, and found mentions of tenor-horn, baryton, and kaiser-baryton (with some doubt about whether the tenor-horn still exists, or has merged with the baryton). I came across one article (sorry can't remember where) that said oval horns are de-rigeur in small ensembles and for marching, but with the bell sticking out to one side instead of up or forward, if you play one while seated in a larger ensemble your next-door neighbour gets it right in the ear, so larger ensembles prefer uprights.

Hi,

in France, we have our tenor tuba, the Bb bass saxhorn. Two manufacturers:
- Antoine Courtois http://www.courtois-paris.com/en/conten ... %2C11%2C12" target="_blank, and
- PGM Couesnon http://instruments-musique.pgm-couesnon ... -11-1.html" target="_blank).

For me, the real tenor tuba is the one manufactured by Alexander - Germany (http://www.gebr-alexander.de/en/instrum ... a-mod-151/" target="_blank )

tuben wrote: Are there mutes for the oval instruments? R. Strauss calls for muted Tenor Tuba.

Sure. First of all, the whole bell piece is completely straight up until the last 6 inches or so. I'm certain that a Wick or whatever mute would work just fine. Second, there are plenty of mute makers that make mutes specifically for these oval instruments as well.

MikeW wrote:I came across one article (sorry can't remember where) that said oval horns are de-rigeur in small ensembles and for marching, but with the bell sticking out to one side instead of up or forward, if you play one while seated in a larger ensemble your next-door neighbour gets it right in the ear, so larger ensembles prefer uprights.

In playing position, one of the oval instruments probably has like a 30 degree from top bell angle. Not all that different to playing position with a euphonium where the entire instrument is held at an angle, except pointing the other direction. These are the common instruments you see in German concert bands, large and small.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KWRcUbeyBE" target="_blank

I suspect that the best style of "tenor tuba" is whatever the best player who can be engaged to play the part owns and thinks sounds best for them on the piece. If you are a professional euphonium player living in the US, that's probably a British-style euphonium. If you are a professional "baryton" player living in Germany, that's probably an ovalform baryton. If you are a tubist who doubles on "tenor tuba", you may feel more comfortable with something that looks like a miniature version of your Alexander 163, but that doesn't mean the Alexander 151 is a more legitimate symphonic instrument than a Besson 967 or Willson 2900 -- actually, the opposite is true.

bbocaner wrote:In playing position, one of the oval instruments probably has like a 30 degree from top bell angle.

I'm sure that's the ideal situation, but the one in my band ends up almost level, pointing straight at neighbor's ear.

I've probably mentioned before, a few years back I ran into an alpine style band, tyrolean maybe, with a couple big steyrische accordions - and a baritone playing the bass line, as I gather is common. It was oval, Chinese. In that context, it does make some sense to me to call it a tuba.

tuben wrote:

Run76 wrote:For me, the real tenor tuba is the one manufactured by Alexander - Germany (http://www.gebr-alexander.de/en/instrum ... a-mod-151/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank )

+1

And this, is really what I was getting at in my original post in this thread. Maybe a better way to phrase the question would have been to ask about how the Cerveny I posted about looks an awful lot like the Alexander.