Intonation: Sousaphone v Tuba

[Ken Laurens]

I'm posting this topic from the UK, I find it strange that the above topic doesn't appear generally on forums such as this, particularly in the US.

I play in the UK on a Besson Prestige Euph. in a Brass Band and a EEb Besson Sovereign in a brass quintet, both have compensating valve systems; playing both equally allow my embrochure to give each instrument equal justice..

In the quintet we play a number of out door gigs, to get a more projection i'm trying a Wessex EEb 4 Valve Sousaphone, but find what I'm gaining in sound/ projection i'm losing in intonation . . the guys i play with think it's a great sound . . but intonation compared with my other two instruments isn't as good . . what should I be expecting from a Sousaphone?

Also, it's appears very few companies manufacture 4 valve EEb Sousaphones.

As you can appreciate Sousaphone's are very scarce in the uk so what may be common knowledge in the US hasn't reached us in the UK.

Looking forward to any comments.

oooOOooo

[thevillagetuba]

I do not play any horns with a compensating valve system, but I do know that it has completely different pitch tendencies from non-compensating systems.

A sousaphone with four valves should be pretty in tune (especially a brand new one, though I have not played your horn or its model). I have played many sousas and have not found them significantly different from my concert horns.

I'd sit down with a tuner and get your head around the new valve system and its tendencies. The horn only looks like it should behave like your others.

[iiipopes]

Most sousaphones have three valves. They will have similar intonation characteristics as a 3-valve Besson/B&H non-compensating tuba (the old ones that have the same bore as the comp 17" BBb, not the new "3/4" or "1000-series" tubas):
You pull and set 3 so that 2+3 is in tune. 1+3 can be sharp, unless you either lip down, or pull 3 more so 2+3 is slightly flat.
Bass clef 2nd space c, or if you read treble clef transposed brass band notation, fourth line d, can be flat.

Each model, whether Conn, King, Reynolds, Olds, Martin, Selmer/Bundy, Holton, Beuscher, etc., after that each have their own quirks, just like various makes and models of tubas do, so it is difficult to generalize beyond that. Two of the more famous quirks are Conn 20K C as described above can be notoriously flat, and King bass clef 4th line open f - treble clef top of the clef g - can be sharp, just like on some Besson/B&H euphoniums.

On your Wessex, which is patterned after the Conn 20K, you will probably have the notorious flat bass clef 2nd space C - treble clef 4th line D. You may have to experiment with using alternate fingerings. The only real way around it is to have the upper outer tubes on the first valve circuit made into a slide and shortened about a centimeter so you can push the 1st valve slide in on that note to tune it up. Even with the 4th valve, to take the place of 1+3, you will still have to pull and set the 3rd valve slide for 2+3 to be in tune, after you have checked 2nd valve alone with a tuner to make sure it comes down a full half step, if not a cent or two more. For the lower first valve partials (if you don't have a movable slide) you may want to split the difference between 1st valve notes being slightly flat so 1+2 is not so sharp.

I have the top loop of the first valve circuit modified to a movable slide on all the souzys I play so that I can "ride throttle" just like on a concert tuba 1st valve slide to fine tune intonation.

I'm just getting back into a sousaphone for outdoor concerts for the same reasons, and I'm experimenting with slide settings and working intonation differences with my Bessophone as well.

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[bigtubby]

The difference is more in the compensating vs non-compensating valve system than it is in the wrap.

I have a King 1241 tuba and a King 1258 sousaphone that are nearly identical in both intonation and timbre. They are also both quite different from my Boosey 3V compensating tuba.

You might get your ideal by finding a sousaphone with geometry (bore taper) that is similar to your compensating tuba and finding someone to graft a Besson valve set into it. The resulting frankensousa if properly constructed should get much closer to your existing tuba than a 20K or clone thereof.

[Donn]

On your Wessex, which is patterned after the Conn 20K, you will probably have the notorious flat bass clef 2nd space C - treble clef 4th line D.

I'm not up on the notoriety in question, but I have a hunch the above is in BBb tuba terms. His tuba is Eb. I wouldn't personally go so far as to predict a Wessex 4V Eb tuba would follow the general intonation tendencies of a Conn 20K, but there is a common intonation issue with that 5th partial, which would be open G at the top of the bass staff and the valve F#, F and E below it. Compensating or not, can't really expect the 5th partial to come out in tune.

but intonation compared with my other two instruments isn't as good

What are the specific problems?

As already mentioned, the compensation system on your other tuba makes a difference, and you have to account for that. Start by tuning 3 flat, and never use it by itself. If you use 4 a lot in combination with other valves, to play low Bb etc., you'll need to tune that flat, too. This is about playing any non-compensating tuba. You may have other problems that are unique to your instrument, that's why we're asking about the specific intonation issues.

[iiipopes]

My post compared the BBb version of the B&H/Besson tubas to the souzy, not the Eb. Until I just now accessed the UK version of the Wessex web site, I did not know they made an Eb version, as it is not on the USA version of the web site.

So please read my comments in the context of BBb. I have never played an Eb sousaphone, so I don't have any input.

[michael_glenn]

The sousaphone is not compensating. That being said, if you use the same fingerings as your compensating horn, below Bb1, you're going to just get sharper and sharper. As for the overall intonation of the horn in the middle and upper register? I don't know. Each horn has its tendencies. You may just need to know where to point the pitch. I don't think it's a matter of sousaphone vs tuba. I think it's a matter of horn vs horn. Some sousaphones have GREAT intonation. Some tubas have GREAT intonation. Some sousaphones have AWFUL intonation. And some tubas have AWFUL intonation. (No lipping or slide pulling..)

[PaulTkachenko]

What notes are bugging you in particular?

I do find you need to work a bit to get sousas in tune (like many non-comp tubas) but you get used to it.

[EMC]

Strictly putting sousas vs Tubas,
I have to say that sousas despite having only 3 valves have, in my experience, presented me with much less intonation problems than the vast majority of "concert" Tubas I've played. I've found Sousaphones to be much more flexible in that regard as well, making it much easier to fix any of these problems. I've played sousaphones that are almost perfectly in tune with almost no work whatsoever and then I've played Tubas that can still have problems even after I be spent hours trying to tune it. I'm not sure why this is but that's just my general experience.

[TubaSteve]

Strictly putting sousas vs Tubas,
I have to say that sousas despite having only 3 valves have, in my experience, presented me with much less intonation problems than the vast majority of "concert" Tubas I've played. I've found Sousaphones to be much more flexible in that regard as well, making it much easier to fix any of these problems. I've played sousaphones that are almost perfectly in tune with almost no work whatsoever and then I've played Tubas that can still have problems even after I be spent hours trying to tune it. I'm not sure why this is but that's just my general experience.

One click on the "Like" button!

My oldest Reynolds Sousa is one of the most in tune and intonation problem free horns I have ever played. I was playing it for the fireworks gig on the 4th. I hit a low "F" that sounded like a pipe organ to end one song. It was a beautiful thing! The trumpet and trombone section turned around and as a group gave me the thumbs up gesture. Cool!

Steve

[toobagrowl]

So Wessex has a 4v Eb sousa? Does anyone else currently make a 4v Eb sousa?

Strictly putting sousas vs Tubas,
I have to say that sousas despite having only 3 valves have, in my experience, presented me with much less intonation problems than the vast majority of "concert" Tubas I've played. I've found Sousaphones to be much more flexible in that regard as well, making it much easier to fix any of these problems. I've played sousaphones that are almost perfectly in tune with almost no work whatsoever and then I've played Tubas that can still have problems even after I be spent hours trying to tune it. I'm not sure why this is but that's just my general experience.

Another "like" here, +1. I've had the same experience with tubas vs. sousas. It would be great, though, if there were more 4v BBb and Eb sousas. I know there is the Jupiter "University Quad" 4v BBb sousa, but I've not played it.

I know everyone has their preferences on sound/tone color. But here is what I've found with common sousas on intonation, based on my experience:

- King BBb (2350, 1250, etc) -- Sharp (abt 20c) 6th partial open F. Everything else is close or "on". Excellent intonation.

- Yamaha 411 BBb -- Sharp (abt 15-20c) 3rd partial open F (right below the staff). Upper range at top/above the staff rides slightly flat (abt 5-10c). Everything else is close or "on". Very good intonation.

- Conn 36K/Signet/Continental Colonial BBb -- Flat 4th partial open Bb and first-valve C (abt 10-15c), sharp 6th partial open F (abt 20c). Everything else is close or "on". Decent intonation.

- Conn 20K BBb - Flat 3rd partial open F (right below the staff), flat first valve C. Been a while since I played one, so I don't remember how many "cents flat" on those partials, I just remember those tendencies.

Many expensive "concert tubas" have more intonation problems than the above.


I find that the response/playability ties into intonation regarding sousas/tubas. For example, I find the Yamaha to have a very easy/responsive/lippable/yet-well-slotting response, so it is easy to "bend" the few "trouble" notes in-tune. For me, it responds best out of the above sousas, with the King sousas next in line.

[EMC]

Strictly putting sousas vs Tubas,
I have to say that sousas despite having only 3 valves have, in my experience, presented me with much less intonation problems than the vast majority of "concert" Tubas I've played. I've found Sousaphones to be much more flexible in that regard as well, making it much easier to fix any of these problems. I've played sousaphones that are almost perfectly in tune with almost no work whatsoever and then I've played Tubas that can still have problems even after I be spent hours trying to tune it. I'm not sure why this is but that's just my general experience.

One click on the "Like" button!

My oldest Reynolds Sousa is one of the most in tune and intonation problem free horns I have ever played. I was playing it for the fireworks gig on the 4th. I hit a low "F" that sounded like a pipe organ to end one song. It was a beautiful thing! The trumpet and trombone section turned around and as a group gave me the thumbs up gesture. Cool!

Steve

Sweet

[DouglasJB]

The Jupiter 590 Quad Valve plays nice, my school has two, as for intonation, I'm not 100% sure with a sectionof 9 intonation is always a little off.