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Good morning, ladies and gentlemen! Our band is more-than-likely purchasing new sousaphones in the Fall. I'm not sure what models we have now. I think they are Kings, but I can't find the brand on them anywhere. The spit valves are falling off and the vavle systems rattle around and add a lot of noise. Not to mention, the overall design is not very complimentary to the player. We often end up playing with a strange variety of head/neck postures that restrict our ability to play with a good sound.

I am leaning towards Yamaha because based on my experiences, they have proven to be very durable and sound great. I played on Yamaha sousas throughout college and in the All-American College Band at Disney, and have no complaints. Any thoughts or additions? I figured it would be beneficial to check here. I haven't gotten around much in the sousaphone world. Any input/experiences would be appreciated.

-Jacob Conner

If the kids aren't holding them correctly, that's going to cause the posture/sound problems you mention.
Take a good read through this thread - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53557. KiltieTuba has posted good photos of how to hold them.

Good sousas? Conn 20K & King 2350 get my vote for best brass. The Yamaha sousa is a good instrument too. I was not a fan of Jupiter, but there are others who like them. I haven't played any other sousas for comparison. I have played the 'convertible' 3/4 King tubas, just stick with sousas for marching if you have the funds.
The 20K is a larger than average sousa and is a bit heavy. That may be an issue for smaller high schoolers.
If you're teaching HS, I really like the old Conn fiberglass sousas as a lighter and more dent resistant alternative. The King fiberglass 2370 (new or used) is also good.
The current generation Conn fiberglass sousa is the same as the King fiberglass sousa (no really, it's the same factory and the same shape, they just change the sticker on the fiberglass). I haven't played the Yamaha fiberglass sousa, but expect it to be just as good as the King fiberglass sousa.

Sousaphone Model??

First - what bloke said. Period.

King souzys need a particular neck and two dissimilar bits combination. If you don't have the right order to the bits into the right neck, it won't line up, you can't adjust it to the face of the player, and intonation will be off.

That said, I have always been a proponent of a rebuilt souzy. I put my money where my mouthpiece is: I play a reconditioned Bundy/Selmer Signet with a Jupiter neck and bits, with a blokepiece Imperial with a 32.6 Helleberg lexan rim and a spacer trimmed down to .080. It's roughly the same geometry as a Conn 7B, but with a slightly wider cup and a different backbore profile. The upper first valve loop has been converted to a slide so I can "ride throttle" on the usual suspects. I have played just about every souzy made, ancient and modern, since football season in 1976, and owned several along the way.

That said, if you must purchase new, I would get the new version of the Conn 36K, which is the same horn, same factory, same line, same mechanicals, and same everything else except for the sticker on the bell and probably using two of the same bits instead of dissimilar bits as the King. I don't know what mouthpiece comes with them, but whatever it is will be fine on the field for students. Hopefully it is something like a 7B, so it is big enough to get a good tone, but not too big to handle for students, especially if you have any cross-over students, like I was, from trumpet, bone or euph. If the bits are the King dissimilar bits, then it doesn't matter whether you get the King or the Conn; get the best deal. It is EXACTLY the same horn.

(The old version of the 36K was the fiberglass version of the 14K, and if you were to get refurbs, my preference would be for either the 14K's or the old 36K's - many out there, many shops have a whole morgue full of "crash parts," and they have overall good tone, projection, and are rather light for their respective families - brass or fiberglass.)

Yamaha is just too dammed expensive for what they are, and you will have valve problems with the valve guides breaking. Period.

As far as posture and positioning, I suggest you have your students consult the Marine Corp Band manual:
http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/MCO%205000_18.PDF" target="_blank" target="_blank

And not just for the souzy players, but for all players.

The neck and bits have to come to the face around from the "outside," with the receiver end of the neck pointed roughly to the right, from the player's left, and the receiver and two bits making rather an arc to the face, so there is maximum adjustability to the player's stature and embouchure. Too many times, the neck is pointed the other way, and it impinges on everything, resulting in the contortions and not wearing the souzy properly, causing undue fatigue, strain, and bad playing.

Finally, do consider refurbs of older horns. They will cost about half of new, and if refurbed properly, will last as long, if not longer. Anything that is prone to breaking from bad design or execution will have been fixed.

I'm not even entirely sure that they are Kings.

Every individual player has their own way of positioning their embouchure on the mouthpiece. I sort of feel like there IS a standard for that sort of thing, but only to an extent. People are going to do what is most comfortable for them and whatever gets them the best sound. These horns that we have aren't very flexible regarding mouthpiece/mouth position. As said before, they are very old and most of them are falling apart. I admire the enthusiasm on restoring really old sousaphones, but I just don't think that's the intention of my unit. We are looking to get a couple sousas that are functional, neat, and uniform so that they look good on a field.

I wanted to pick through the knowledge on this site to try and find out who is putting out the best models these days. It's also a healthy discussion to have in general. I think it's important to keep up with what kind of models are being manufactured and which are notable.

Thank you for the input thus far! I do remember having some issues with the valve guides on the Yamahas. It was usually an easy fix if you had a stache of extra felts, guides, springs laying around, but it is a little inconvenient. I have heard a ton about the Conn 20k, mostly good things, but I've also heard that they are very inconsistent in how they play. I have also heard that they are sort of flimsy, but that they recently improved on that. One of our guys here mentioned the 4-valve Dynasty sousas. Does anyone have any input or experience with those models? We're not really looking for fiberglass. What do you all think? Weight is no issue. I'm also not a teacher. I play for a military band down south. I apologize for not clarifying.

Three Valves wrote:Sousaphone Model??

Perfect! Just what I was looking for!

The 14k is a fantastic model, similar to the 20k but a bit smaller a bit easier to handle but still produces a nice big sound, if you can find some Elkhart ones even better.

EMC wrote:The 14k is a fantastic model, similar to the 20k but a bit smaller a bit easier to handle but still produces a nice big sound, if you can find some Elkhart ones even better.

You guys can save your keystrokes. He wants a set of shiny new sousaphones for his unit, so the virtues of older models are irrelevant.

My experience with (other people playing) the 20K is that intonation can be a problem, the flat F below the staff is real.

.

jconner wrote:
I am leaning towards Yamaha because based on my experiences, they have proven to be very durable and sound great. I played on Yamaha sousas throughout college and in the All-American College Band at Disney, and have no complaints. Any thoughts or additions? I figured it would be beneficial to check here. I haven't gotten around much in the sousaphone world. Any input/experiences would be appreciated.

-Jacob Conner

Ditto the Yamaha 411. Very big clear projecting sound, good intonation, very responsive, and very well-made.

The King 2350 is also a great sousa with a big sweet sound, excellent intonation, good response and well-made.


The Yamaha 411 is my top pick out of the modern sousas, with the King 2350 a close second

Donn wrote:You guys can save your keystrokes. He wants a set of shiny new sousaphones for his unit, so the virtues of older models are irrelevant.

He thinks he wants shiny new sousaphones. It is our job to help him put a proposal together to show how much more cost efficient properly rebuilt ones are that will last just as long, so he saves his school money, still has quality instruments for his band, and everyone looks good all the way around.

jconner wrote:I am leaning towards Yamaha because based on my experiences, they have proven to be very durable and sound great. I played on Yamaha sousas throughout college and in the All-American College Band at Disney, and have no complaints. Any thoughts or additions? I figured it would be beneficial to check here. I haven't gotten around much in the sousaphone world. Any input/experiences would be appreciated.

Marketing. You didn't play run-off-the-line Yammy souzys. You played tweaked ones from the factory so they looked, played and sounded their best. More than half the schools where I live, due to one large regional music store, play Yamaha low brass. I have either visited them all, or had students sit in with us them at community events, and talked to the other local techs. EVERY ONE OF THEM NEEDS NEW GUIDES AND THE CASINGS REWORKED ON AN ONGOING BASIS.

iiipopes wrote: He thinks he wants shiny new sousaphones. It is our job to help him put a proposal together to show how much more cost efficient properly rebuilt ones are that will last just as long, so he saves his school money, still has quality instruments for his band, and everyone looks good all the way around.

Why should even one of the limited supply of older US made sousaphones go to this band, who apparently won't appreciate them? Someone has to play the shiny new stuff, let it be this guy's unit.

Donn wrote:Why should even one of the limited supply of older US made sousaphones go to this band, who apparently won't appreciate them? Someone has to play the shiny new stuff, let it be this guy's unit.

Well, aren't we mercenary today. I'm sure the OP "appreciates" the way you just insulted him.

And secondly, bloke said exactly the same thing about preferring rebuilt. But I didn't see you deprecate his comments, just mine. And I even gave an opinion as to which instruments I would prefer, if the OP does, for whatever reason, go with new instruments.

Please review yourself before you post further.

iiipopes wrote:I'm sure the OP "appreciates" the way you just insulted him.

You're making an insult out of it. He knows what he wants, and he's told us. If everyone wanted the same thing, it would be more difficult for everyone, not to mention boring. I wouldn't trade my old US sousaphone for a new shiny one, but a band is really an entertainment exercise, and I think it's more than plausible that a set of identical, shiny sousaphones best meets their specific goals even if they are as bloke says under-engineered, fragile and of unexceptional tonal quality. There's really nothing wrong with that.

Jacob Conner, please PM me about this.

I am not an educator. If I was, I would absolutely be sporting the idea of instrument restoration. I may have been a little dramatic with my original post regarding the neck/bit positioning. The sousas we have now just don’t sit as comfortably some of the other models we’ve played. This is NOT the reason we are replacing our old equipment. It is, however, something we are addressing in our search for new horns.

Thank you, everyone, for you input! This was very helpful.

bloke wrote:Japanese-brand (made in China?) sousaphones are expensive and (to me) dull-sounding.

Have you even played Yammy sousas The YSH-411 has "Made in Japan" stamped on the valve cluster, not the bell like other sousas. And even though the YSH-411 is a similar-sized 5/4 sousa like the 20K, the sound and intonation characteristics are very different. The YSH-411 has a much clearer/textured/almost "bright" sound. Great for outdoor playing (what it's intended for).
The 20K (to me) has a too-dark/tubby "cardboard" sound, and does not intonate as well as the YSH-411.

iiipopes wrote:EVERY ONE OF THEM NEEDS NEW GUIDES AND THE CASINGS REWORKED ON AN ONGOING BASIS.

Kids will bust up ANY sousa. I've seen plenty of old Conn and King sousas with messed-up valves, broken bell screws/flanges, mangled necks, etc.

@ jconner: Go with your gut on this and also ask other sousa/tuba players and band directors on what they prefer/like

toobagrowl wrote:Kids will bust up ANY sousa. I've seen plenty of old Conn and King sousas with messed-up valves, broken bell screws/flanges, mangled necks, etc.

In my high school we had ancient (even then) King 'glass souzys. Never a problem with anything you described. The worst I ever saw was the solder let loose on one bell screw, and when I took it in, thinking I had broken it and would therefore have to pay for it, the tech said it had insufficient solder on it in the first place, and the school picked up the tab.

I play in a community band that meets in a regional junior high school band room. Three ancient 'glass souzys hang on the wall: two Kings and a Martin. The lacquer is long gone from what appears to be 40 years of normal wear. But all slides work, all valves work, and there are no problems. I've even used one for rehearsal when mine was in the shop. No problems at all with anything you describe.

OTOH, the techs in my area tell me that Yammy valves on all of their brass are in the shop more often than all other brands combined, and I have watched students deal with the frustrations of spinning valves.

Jupiters, unless something has changed in the last couple of years, are no better. Before one rehearsal a few, and I mean only a few years ago, I got to my other community band sponsored by a regional university early, and they were unloading a brand new shipment of Jupiter brass souzys. These were faculty, staff, crew and students who knew what they were doing. In spite of this, I watched the metal dent simply from the slight hand pressure needed to lift the souzys out of the packing crates, and they sounded blatty as hell when I heard them played. The only thing that could tame about half of the blat was a really deep mouthpiece like a Schilke H-II or such. The 24AW clone mouthpieces that came with the souzys were trash.

Respectfully, I completely disagree with your generalization. My comments are the summation of decades of observed incidents, and I stand by my opinions as based on empirical observation and experience of playing souzys for 39 years.

iiipopes wrote:

toobagrowl wrote:Kids will bust up ANY sousa. I've seen plenty of old Conn and King sousas with messed-up valves, broken bell screws/flanges, mangled necks, etc.

In my high school we had ancient (even then) King 'glass souzys. Never a problem with anything you described. The worst I ever saw was the solder let loose on one bell screw, and when I took it in, thinking I had broken it and would therefore have to pay for it, the tech said it had insufficient solder on it in the first place, and the school picked up the tab.

I play in a community band that meets in a regional junior high school band room. Three ancient 'glass souzys hang on the wall: two Kings and a Martin. The lacquer is long gone from what appears to be 40 years of normal wear. But all slides work, all valves work, and there are no problems. I've even used one for rehearsal when mine was in the shop. No problems at all with anything you describe.

OTOH, the techs in my area tell me that Yammy valves on all of their brass are in the shop more often than all other brands combined, and I have watched students deal with the frustrations of spinning valves.

Jupiters, unless something has changed in the last couple of years, are no better. Before one rehearsal a few, and I mean only a few years ago, I got to my other community band sponsored by a regional university early, and they were unloading a brand new shipment of Jupiter brass souzys. These were faculty, staff, crew and students who knew what they were doing. In spite of this, I watched the metal dent simply from the slight hand pressure needed to lift the souzys out of the packing crates, and they sounded blatty as hell when I heard them played. The only thing that could tame about half of the blat was a really deep mouthpiece like a Schilke H-II or such. The 24AW clone mouthpieces that came with the souzys were trash.

Respectfully, I completely disagree with your generalization. My comments are the summation of decades of observed incidents, and I stand by my opinions as based on empirical observation and experience of playing souzys for 39 years.

I agree with these comments. I have a similar experience with a group of 3 Conn 36K Sousaphones that are still going strong after 40 or more years in my high school marching band. I have no experience with the durability of Yamaha horns.