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What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/2340?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:59 am
by Bob Kolada
Will the horn need to be lengthened or shortened as well?

Re: What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/23

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:21 pm
by Tubajug
I put a Holton Monster Eb bell (and bottom bow) on my King 2341 (four-valve version of the horn you mention) which was quite a bit shorter. I sent it off to Dan "TubaTinker" Schultz for a final assembly and de-denting (among other things). Dan told me that the King bell and stack is about 31" long and the Holton bell was about 23" long. You can see the project in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=60091&p=502227

The Holton (or a York bell, which will also fit) bell is much shorter than the King, so you will need to add tubing if you use one of those bells. If you go to the third page of the above thread, you will see where Dan added the extra tubing to make up for the shorter bell.

I was inspired by this TubeNetter's project who added his extra tubing to the main tuning slide, as bloke suggested:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40978&start=24

Good luck and post pictures of your project! We all love to see what people are working on.

Re: What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/23

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:25 pm
by Ken Herrick
If you merely want to go from detachable bell to a fixed version, it can be done very easily.
Taking the two halves of the collar off and cutting them to half width then soldering everything back together will achieve a "1 piece" bell. It only removes, at most 3/4 of an inch from the overall length.
I did this mod to the 1241 I bought from Dan about 4 years ago. I found it made a real improvement in response and think it is well worth doing. Not counting repairing lacquer or plating caused by unsoldering the collars and then putting it together, it can easily be done in an hour.

Re: What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/23

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:52 pm
by Tubajug
Great idea Ken!

Re: What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/23

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:12 am
by Bob Kolada
Thanks guys!

Re: What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/23

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:13 pm
by iiipopes
I did this with my "Bessophone." When I bought it years ago, it had the detachable Miraphone recording bell. Tuba Exchange had fashioned an upright detachable bell out of a St. Pete to go on it as well. Well, it was too short and TubaTinker extended the legs of the main tuning slide about two inches per leg to compensate, and did a superlative job for me. After a few years, when I decided I preferred the tone of the Besson bell, my local tech and I measured, and measured and measured: height, diameter at the ferrule, etc., for a couple of weeks before switching. It turned out perfect. We did it during winter break, and my tech was happy to have a "real" job to work on instead of just fixing school horn damage or the steady diet of re-rounding and fixing guides on Yamaha valve casings (his words - not mine).

Now, here's the deal:

1) Measurement is King (pun intended.) You must make sure the EFFECTIVE length of the bell is the same, because of the terminal node that is different depending on the different throat geometry and rim diameter of different bells. Sorry, I don't know the math or rule-of-thumb to get there (maybe Sam Gnagny or Matt Walters know); all I know is that on mine, the slightly narrower throat combined with a 1/2 inch larger diameter rim on the Besson New Standard BBb 17 inch rim balanced out the slightly larger throat but only 16 1/2 inch diameter rim of the St. Pete bell.

2) The leadpipe. If the lead pipe is solidly soldered to the bell, it is going to be a &!+ยข# to unsolder. It takes lots and lots of time and care, slipping in card stock that won't scorch and keep solder from re-flowing as you work the leadpipe loose. Then you have the problem of an unsupported leadpipe that could very easily be kinked or otherwise damaged if care is not taken to keep it stable in the interim.

3) Installation of the new bell, assuming all the geometry issues have been properly addressed, is straightforward. My tech dry-fitted it, but initially it was not good. Then we realized that out of abundance of caution, he had trimmed it long. So another quarter or three-eighths inch off, and it slid into the stack ferrule like a glove, soldered up clean, and it did exactly what I wanted. Then he repositioned the receiver brace. And because of the slightly smaller throat on the Besson bell, I got the bonus of a suspended leadpipe that improved intonation and response, especially first ledger line first valve Eb, which I had assumed was a leaky worn first valve rotor, but turned out to be the detachable tenon and collar was in the wrong place on the effectively shorter upright bell, and impeded the anti-node in the throat.

Bottom line (second pun intended), and especially after it cleared up intonation quirks and resonance issues, if you are sure you don't want to change bells again, I agree with going forward with the switch. It turned my tuba from being just OK, even above average, to being perfect for my application, my embouchure, and my playing style and repertoire. I receive ongoing compliments as to the foundation it provides for the ensembles I perform with.

Recently, a friend of mine borrowed it to play a brass quintet concert. I attended the concert. That was the first time I had actually gotten to hear it out front. WOW! I will put its tone and intonation up against any tuba in the world, from a $100 garage sale find, to any of these $30,000+ "custom" tubas. It's core, breadth, and foundation were even better than I had hoped for, and of course you can't tell sitting under the bell exactly what it does out front.

One last item: the H. N. White company were historically very particular about matching bells to horns, what we call "mechanical impedance," to make sure everything functioned together properly and that intonation and response were even throughout the range. That also affects the choice of mouthpiece. If you can't find an old pre-cyborg King 25 (slightly shallower) or 26 (deep and dark) mouthpiece to bring out all the tuba will have to offer when you are done, I have sold all my other mouthpieces except for a Blokepiece Imperial with a trimmed spacer and the 32.6mm modified helleberg lexan rim. With the choice of shanks, bowls, rims and the spacer that can be modified, you will find a Blokepiece combination to provide the perfect interface (again, pun intended) between the embouchure and the tuba (yes, I know - there is no such thing as a "perfect" mouthpiece, but you're reading a post from a guy who has tried several dozen over the years and sold all but the Imperial and a Kelly lexan for outdoor extreme weather).

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61956" target="_blank

Re: What's involved with putting a 1 piece bell on a 1240/23

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:41 pm
by iiipopes
Tubajug wrote:The Holton (or a York bell, which will also fit)....
The reason a York bell will fit, and even try a Reynolds bell if you can't find a one-piece King bell of the proper geometry, is that (the summary version) F. A. Reynolds, as a young man, started out working for York, then was lured away by H. N. White to develop the King valved brass while White worked with Thomas King, Sousa's #2 trombone player behind Pryor, to develop the trombone line (hence, the line being "King" musical instruments instead of "White"), and then after being transferred to marketing, Reynolds left H. N. White to start his own company. Aside: not only the tubas, which share similar layouts and the .687 bore, but also the Reynolds Contempora cornet has the same under-slung design as the King Master Model cornet.

Further "family" history: the shop foreman for Olds/Reynolds (yes, after Reynolds sold his company to Roth, and after a few years came out of retirement, aligned himself with his former rival Olds) was Zig Kanstul. So for Zig to come out with the "York" bell brass alloy and fashion his "new" line of "American" tubas accordingly is simply "full circle" from Papa York.