Lovin' Me Some Helicon!!!! Need some horn dorn.

[ken k]

Stumbled upon this thread again and reminded me that I've acquired a couple of Cerveny helicons in F since my last post. The 4/4 has become my go to horn.

I almost forgot about my own post. Those are really nice. I keep following eBay to see if I can find a bargain. One of these days I will have one.

These are beautiful and I would love to find one like this in Eb. Do you know if Czerveny made them in Eb?

[Donn]

These are beautiful and I would love to find one like this in Eb. Do you know if Czerveny made them in Eb?

Sure. The Eb has not been particularly marketed, at least in the west, but the Lignatone stencil I had was a pretty decent instrument. I had some trouble at times with intonation, but that could have been as much me as the horn, and it had fine tone and a hearty low end. It's a large Eb, big fat bell and moderately large bore for Eb. The main problem, at least for some players, is ergonomic. Unlike the F, it's a full circle design, and the rotary valves are installed in the usual orientation, so your right hand is up towards your chin, and there isn't much flexibility in the leadpipe so your mouthpiece may also be more towards your chin than you like. I've seen pictures of older Cerveny-style BBb helicons with the valves turned at a right angle so the axis is parallel to the paddles, which might help a lot with the Eb, but I suppose at this point we're lucky if they're still making the Eb at all. That ergonomic problem might be even a little bit worse with normal valves, mine had the old clock springs with shorter paddles.

[Dan Bradley]

I have a nice helicon/pic, but I can't figure out how to upload pics on here. Help? I feel old.

Dan Bradley
Virginia

[pjv]

Seeing as so many different types of "tuba"s" have been modified over the years in one way or another, I just assumed that someone, someday would slap a 5th valve on a Cerveny/Amati F helicon.

But I've never seen this. I can only conclude that this is because;

-this model sucks
-there's is no place to put one (even dependent)
-I just haven't seen it

Anyone have an more learned opinion on this?

[Donn]

Why? You know, it's more or less like a sousaphone. That isn't to say it's a poor quality instrument, it just prioritizes light weight and simplicity and isn't aimed at the brass quintet player etc. Do you recognize this gent?



That's Sasa Alisanovic, probably on stage with Boban Markovic, more or less at the apex of the Balkan brass scene - no better tuba player, no better band. That's the same F helicon, but it seems he disdains even to have a 4th valve. I think he later got a new one, and it does have a 4th valve - maybe they had discontinued the 3 valve model.

I should add, the one I had didn't suck - it sounded fine and had good response and intonation all the way down - but its tone quality was simpler and more generic brass than the Eb, which is larger and naturally has more of that conical horn sound.

[pjv]

Thanks. I’m aware of the potential of a helicon generally speaking and aware of what Cerveny is capable of producing.
The specific usage of the F helicon in Balkan music is of course very impressive but it’s one thing to play those notes one chooses to. Having to play the notes of others in the way they more or less want is something different all together. Think brass quintet for example.
Thus my question

[Donn]

OK, maybe it's time to get some opinions on which helicons and sousaphones are best suited for brass quintet. It's too bad the Cerveny Eb is so hard to come by, because I think that might come out pretty high on the list. But of course we should consider the BBb instruments as well. The Cerveny BBb helicon might score pretty well among currently available instruments. I'm assuming that the quintet player would be seated as usual, which might relieve one of the common problems with European helicons, lacking the multi-segmented leadpipe-and-bits they are sometimes ill fitted to the player; but sitting down I think you could hoist it up wherever it needs to go and easily keep it there. But maybe we're talking about marching brass quintet - I shouldn't make such unfounded assumptions.

[pjv]

No offense
But I was just really curious as to why no one had slapped a 5th on an F Cerveny seeing as this theoretically should give the user a more or less usable chromatic scale.

[wrms]

Here are mine. A 1918 Buescher BBb from 1918, a Conn Eb from 1923 and a August Pollard Eb from some distant past.
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[Donn]

Ooh, I'm in for helicon-in-adirondack-chair -


That's the Eb Cerveny, I assume, in a Lignatone stencil. Now owned by someone in Minneapolis or thereabouts.

[wrms]

We should have put some drinks on the arms and added some sunglasses. What would a Helicon drink?

[iattp]

Regarding the F helicons in Balkan music. I've pretty much NEVER seen anyone use the fourth valve. 1-2 combos are pretty much no, all 3rd valve. Most of the songs played are in a "good" range for an F horn, and when they play on Bb helicons, there's a tendency to avoid going lower than F below the staff anyway. Not sure why, but I'm playing a wedding out here this weekend (in Kočani, Macedonia) and I'm gonna make use of some fat pedals. The guys out here on F's tend to use an octave pedal, which SOUNDS kinda cool, but really my guy? If you wanna shove that lower end down someone's ear, push yourself to play lower. Sure, on an F it's hard, but it CAN be done. Still, the music is hella fun to play and if you REALLY want to hear a great helicon player, check out Ekrem Mamutović's tuba player.

Okay, back to grading tests...

[Donn]

Do you have any ideas about non-western pitches? I don't know if that's the right term, but I've been told that pitches and harmonies are not quite the same over there, and on purpose. Not saying they use 3 instead of 1+2 because they like the effect on pitch - I think that obviously wouldn't work - but more like, they're so used to pushing the pitch to places tubas aren't built for, that they don't bother with some of the valve combination finesse that for us is practically religious.