Traveling the 'unfriendly skies'

[Rick F]

Everyone who travels with their instrument should read this story by Toby Oft of the BSO. The orchestra's return trip from Europe did not go without a hitch.

TRAVELING THE UNFRIENDLY SKIES - no instrument will be guaranteed safe passage

[bort]

TLDR, but that sucks (it ended badly, right?)

Frankly, I don't understand why people travel with irreplaceable things and put themselves at risk. I'm not blaming the victim, but if I had to fly with the CSO York or take some other big tuba that is 95% as good, you can bet what I would do.

[Guest User]

I can't imagine flying with a tuba. It would scare me to death. And how do you take it around in one of those big coffin-like trunks, anyway?

[Donn]

I would hardly call that trombone bell beyond repair and needing replacement. It would seem to me that that damage could be repaired... and is repaired nearly every summer by techs working on school-owned/abused student instruments.

You could repair it, and sell it to a student, no problem. For the type of player who is going to sort through various bells and worry about details of construction, you might not be able to just hammer it back to some semblance of bell shape, without affecting the tempering and so forth that they evidently can hear.

The cello story reminded me of my bari. The guy gate checked his cello and they trashed it. But mine looked more like an accident, albeit a surprisingly destructive one, and the bari was fixed and I still play it. It looks like they really went to town on his cello. Gate check is no guarantee - they could take your stuff and chuck it straight down to the pavement, then walk down carrying a couple strollers. Then they drive over it a couple times, and toss what's left in the baggage compartment.

[hup_d_dup]

I would hardly call that trombone bell beyond repair and needing replacement. It would seem to me that that damage could be repaired... and is repaired nearly every summer by techs working on school-owned/abused student instruments.

You could repair it, and sell it to a student, no problem.

Also, the photo shows the bell to dramatic effect. If this happened inside a case, you can imagine what happened to other parts of the instrument, such as the slide, which may not look as bad but could be more serious.

Hup

[roweenie]

I recently flew to Spain with my detachable bell York out of JFK.

When I told the American Airlines check in agent I wanted to be present when TSA examined it, they told me that I was "not allowed" to be present, due to TSA rules. When I tried to SHOW them a copy of an email I received from a TSA supervisor, making it very clear that TSA DOES make allowances for in-person screening of musical instruments (think 300 year old cellos, etc.), the wonderful airline employee told me "I don't want to see that", "you might have made it up", and "we'll tell you what the rules are" (all three of those are *direct quotes*, as I recorded the entire conversation).

The TSA agent that was summoned over was of no help, either. He didn't want to see my email, and then told the airline lady that "they were in charge", basically hanging me out to dry.

The moral of the story is this - you can do all the research you want prior to flying, get all the assurances possible by the powers-that-be that everything will be ok, etc. etc. etc., - at the airport, it's all out the window. They basically operate by their own rules, they've got you over a barrel, and they know it.

[Tom]

This was a Boston Symphony Orchestra tour. Major orchestras like the Boston Symphony do not rely upon musicians carrying their instruments aboard the plane as carry-ons as a fail safe method of getting the equipment from point A to point B when touring involves air travel which means it was his personal choice to carry it on. So, being that it was a Boston Symphony Orchestra tour, it undoubtedly included having to create a carnet and use the orchestra's touring cases to fly the equipment to and from Europe on cargo planes. Mr. Oft, for whatever reason, opted to not pack his instrument with the rest of the orchestra's equipment and instead wanted to carry it on (spoiler alert if you didn't read the article: he basically got his way after arguing and delaying the flight for 45 minutes because he refused to check it).

Part of what I do in my day job is arrange for my orchestra's tour logistics (NOT for the Boston Symphony) including transportation of everything we are taking to Europe from the US. I can tell you a few things with 100% certainty: significant quantities of cargo transported in and our of Europe with a carnet (such as an entire orchestra's touring outfit) do NOT travel on passenger airliners UNLESS the orchestra has chartered the ENTIRE plane (this is cost prohibitive 99.9% of the time). There are laws and regulations about this stuff in our post 9/11 world. So, all of the cargo travels on cargo planes. Cargo flying on cargo planes is treated very different than checked or carry-on baggage on a typical commercial passenger flight. EVERYTHING gets palletized, everything usually gets shrink wrapped, and often large nylon or cordura nets are used to keep shipments together (multiple pallets, etc.). The loading and unloading of cargo planes is a much slower and much more careful process and since everything is palletized, the "processing and handling" that happens when getting it on and off the plane isn't even close to what passengers experience on commercial flights. I will not say there are never any issues with damage (it is VERY rare, but it has happened - that's why we have insurance), but that getting the equipment in and out in travel trunks palletized on commercial cargo planes is a much, much safer bet than trying to do it on your own on a commercial flight regardless of if you want it checked or there as a carry on. In terms of practical considerations, packing your instrument to send along with the orchestra's cargo also means that if becomes far less likely that your instrument will be lost or misplaced during traveling because of the sheer volume of cargo vs. a single piece. Cargo on cargo planes also does NOT go through the same sort of TSA inspection that passenger luggage does: there is nobody opening, inspecting, and repacking your instrument which also minimizes risk. Shipments are inspected (you better believe it!) but nothing like most folks would imagine from dealing with passenger-grade TSA inspections.

When the orchestra I work for travels to Europe (and we do so on a fairly regular basis), we always encourage our musicians to pack their instruments in our travel trunks that we are responsible for shipping in and our of Europe. We cannot 'require' it of our musicians, but we strongly recommend it. We also always remind those that want to carry their own instruments that they are on their own doing so and 100% subject to any and all airline regulations and airline personnel demands. If the airline says you have to check your instrument and you've only packed it in a gig bag, well... For our string players, there is an added level of complexity due to import/export/cross-border transport restrictions of certain woods and ivory. The orchestra addresses this (part of the carnet process) but again, when you carry your instrument on - you're on your own and risk having the instrument seized and/or having to pay fines or produce all sorts of documentation.

All of that is to say that I'm almost 100% sure that Mr. Oft had an alternative available to him for flying his trombone to and from Europe but elected to try his luck carrying it on - he created his own problem to some extent. His story perfectly illustrates exactly what can happen: past result are not future guarantees and passenger airline policies are hardly worth the paper they're printed on because at the end of the day you're at the mercy of the airline's employees that are working right then and there. Me? I would never fly my instrument on my own if I didn't have to and I'm not quite sure why Mr. Oft took the risk.

[Three Valves]

Mr Oft left these facts out of his Blog??

[bort]

His blog post rant is gone.

[Dubby]

As Bort said, his rant is gone. His twitter says he put it on hiatus to not taint the success of the tour, but I wonder if there is anything else going on? Interesting points made by tom too. When we traveled to China with my university band, we had a packing night where everyone was responsible for packing their instrument in either a flight case or golf case. Nothing was damaged.

[Tom]

His blog post rant is gone.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/music/2 ... story.html

I suspect that the Boston Symphony asked him to take it down and/or stop the discussion that included "Boston Symphony" which apparently began on Twitter with some tweets regarding the situation that weren't completely accurate - both according to the airline and according to the BSO administration

[Three Valves]

RT @ZWilderTenor: @tobyoft so sorry 2 hear bout how @British_Airways treated you + BSO! Would think it'd be an honor 2 have a worldclass orch on board.

[bort]

A(nother) reminder for everyone -- if it's on the Internet, EVERYONE will see it.

I used to have a boss who said if you don't want it printed out and hung up on the front door of the building, don't write it in an email.

[roweenie]

His story perfectly illustrates exactly what can happen: past result are not future guarantees and passenger airline policies are hardly worth the paper they're printed on because at the end of the day you're at the mercy of the airline's employees that are working right then and there.

Never has a truer statement been uttered regarding the topic.

My understanding was that he was not able to carry on his horn due to a potential lack of available space:

"....our flights are very busy at this time of the year and sometimes it’s not always possible to accommodate every customer’s cabin bag in the overhead containers.”

Below is a quote from the new law that went into effect on Jan. 1 2015:

Carriers must allow passengers to stow their small musical instruments in an approved stowage area in the cabin if at the time the passenger boards the aircraft such stowage space is available.  Under the rule, musical instruments as carry-on items are treated no differently from other carry-on items and the stowage space should be made available for all carry-on items on a "first come, first served" basis. (emphasis added). 

You can read the entire new legislation here:

http://www.transportation.gov/briefing- ... 8vcFz.dpuf" target="_blank"

As I read it (it doesn't say anywhere in the law that the rules are "out the window" if the airline is "busy") they have no right, under law, to discriminate against his ability to bring a musical instrument on a plane due to a potential lack of space or an abundance of passengers.

I would add this to Tom's quote:

"Nor are they required to comply with legislation passed by the U.S. Congress and signed into law by the President."

[dwerden]

When the orchestra I work for travels to Europe (and we do so on a fairly regular basis), we always encourage our musicians to pack their instruments in our travel trunks that we are responsible for shipping in and our of Europe. We cannot 'require' it of our musicians, but we strongly recommend it. We also always remind those that want to carry their own instruments that they are on their own doing so and 100% subject to any and all airline regulations and airline personnel demands. If the airline says you have to check your instrument and you've only packed it in a gig bag, well... For our string players, there is an added level of complexity due to import/export/cross-border transport restrictions of certain woods and ivory. The orchestra addresses this (part of the carnet process) but again, when you carry your instrument on - you're on your own and risk having the instrument seized and/or having to pay fines or produce all sorts of documentation.

That's logical and almost surely the safest way to send an instrument. However, when I did this in the Coast Guard Band the cargo did not usually go to our lodging and was not on the same schedule. I recognize that the military does not do things exactly as the civilian/business world, but here was the problem we had with that method. If you wanted to be able to practice as regularly as possible, the cargo method did get in the way. If I had carried my horn on board (which I did not, even though I only play a puny euphonium) I could have practiced as soon as we got settled into our rooms. And I would presumably have more flexible practice timing before departure as well.

Does any of that apply to your experiences, Tom?

[Tom]

That's logical and almost surely the safest way to send an instrument. However, when I did this in the Coast Guard Band the cargo did not usually go to our lodging and was not on the same schedule. I recognize that the military does not do things exactly as the civilian/business world, but here was the problem we had with that method. If you wanted to be able to practice as regularly as possible, the cargo method did get in the way. If I had carried my horn on board (which I did not, even though I only play a puny euphonium) I could have practiced as soon as we got settled into our rooms. And I would presumably have more flexible practice timing before departure as well.

Does any of that apply to your experiences, Tom?

Your experience regarding access to your instrument reflects exactly what the scenario is when the orchestra that I work for travels. That is to say that the cargo and the people do not travel together. In the tours that I've been involved with, the trucking schedule is always different than the musician schedule, and I imagine that is the case with most traveling ensembles that take enough 'stuff' to necessitate truck transport.We do not load the instruments on buses upon arrival - they travel in two and sometimes 3 semi-trucks throughout the course of the tour regardless of what part of the world we happen to be in. How the musicians travel depends on where we are, where we need to go, and how much time we have to get there. Sometimes there are flights, trains, buses, or even boats.

The trucks / cargo (instruments) never go to the hotel where the orchestra is (they team drive overnight and up to 24 hours per day or as much as local law allows for), so there is not 24/7 access (or even evening access) to instruments unless an individual musician wants to cart their own instrument around during the course of a tour. We do have some musicians that opt to transport their own instruments during the course of a tour, but the vast majority do not.

We do the best we can to deal with that problem by arranging as much time as possible at each venue for individual musician practice. We post the hours that instruments will be available and the hours that the trucks will be loaded so that musicians are aware of the schedule and when practice time is available. With that said, between the on-tour rehearsals and concerts and the travel days, there isn't a lot of time available. The bottom line is that practicing on tour is difficult.

[dwerden]

Very clear description. Thanks, Tom!

[jacobg]

So, your response to a musician not being able to take an instrument onboard is "travel with a large professional orchestra"? That's not very helpful to the rest of us.

[Tom]

So, your response to a musician not being able to take an instrument onboard is "travel with a large professional orchestra"? That's not very helpful to the rest of us.

No, that's not it at all.

The original post referred to a blog posting by a professional trombone player in a large professional orchestra that was traveling with said large professional orchestra. I pointed out that he was traveling with the large professional orchestra and that his experience could have been different because of the way that I know large professional orchestras travel / do things - I went on to speak of my own experiences as someone responsible for facilitating the travel of a large professional orchestra for a living.

This entire thread was never really about individuals (or as you put it "the rest of us") traveling like the pros in large orchestras do because the fact of the matter is that you can't - but the subject of the initial post (and blog author/trombonist) could have.

Instead of having the orchestra facilitate flying his instrument around, he opted to try to carry it on and had some problems. He then decided to post (now removed) exaggerated claims and some flat-out misinformation all the while leaving out the whole other side of the story - which I pointed out because most people here don't have any clue how orchestras travel.

So, I was not offering travel advice to you or anyone else; my comments were centered around the original post which linked to the blog about (again) the professional trombonist in a large professional orchestra traveling with his trombone.



There are MANY other threads on this BBS about individuals flying with instruments. One just recently that probably is still on the front page from bloke. Those threads are geared towards individuals traveling. This one is not.

[bort]

MH370?