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I dream... but any chance that with Markus Theinert being at Conn-Selmer now, that we might see a modern-era American-made rotary tuba?

In terms of American-made horns, it seems like our only choices are student-level things, sousaphones, or re-worked York designs... which are a little boring to me.

Kanstul seems like they should able to build something too, since they already make all of the parts that would be needed. However, it's clear that they aren't interested. Wasn't the west coast Miraphone territory?

I'm sure there's no domestic market for any of this (except maybe Texas, where it seems like there are/were lots of rotary tubas AND people who want American made stuff... and generally just a large tuba market). Maybe they could be exported?

I know, fat chance... but still, if someone builds one, I would buy it.

bloke wrote:I've never seen any videos of Mr. Theinert manufacturing rotors.
Perhaps he possesses these skillsets, but something tells me that he won't be doing that in Eastlake.

Well, I wasn't picturing him making them himself... but possibly him building stuff here that he could sell more easily in Germany.

Googly moogly, don't get me fired up about China again...

I wasn't suggesting that the US tubas would be cheaper than the Chinese ones. But if a US company could make a great rotary tuba that is competitively priced with a similar German tuba... I think it would sell.

This is America, Son.

Our valves go up and down.

Not 'round and 'round!!

It's getting near Miller Time.

Lighten up, Francis!!

Three Valves wrote:This is America, Son.

Our valves go up and down.

Not 'round and 'round!!

American 5-valve tubas have 1 rotor already. Just make 5x as many of them!

What would this give you, that makes it worth all that tooling setup? Is there an end product that's practically distinctive - a rotary valve tuba that's clearly different from rotary valve tubas coming out of Germany, Italy etc.? A lot of investment to make just because the more, the merrier.

Donn wrote:What would this give you, that makes it worth all that tooling setup? Is there an end product that's practically distinctive - a rotary valve tuba that's clearly different from rotary valve tubas coming out of Germany, Italy etc.? A lot of investment to make just because the more, the merrier.

How about making a 3/4 or 4/4 rotary CC tuba that isn't a Miraphone or Cerveny? (Yes, there are others, but in much higher price points like Rudy Meinl, etc). It seems like nearly all of the new rotary horns these days are 5/4 sized. I'm sure that says something about the market...

Beyond that, I don't see it as a reason to not do something, only because someone else already does it. If that were the case, there would be 1 car, 1 computer, 1 TV, etc. "Clearly different" is not something I expect. Subtle differences are where it's at.

Flip the question a bit -- King used to make rotary BBb and CC tubas. Some were better than others. Paul Maybery used one for 40+ years, and has talked about it here as being a difficult horn to play compared to new horns. (I hate playing the "what if" game), but what if King resurrected and improved that horn up to modern standards? Might be pretty cool!

bort wrote: Flip the question a bit -- King used to make rotary BBb and CC tubas. Some were better than others. Paul Maybery used one for 40+ years, and has talked about it here as being a difficult horn to play compared to new horns. (I hate playing the "what if" game), but what if King resurrected and improved that horn up to modern standards? Might be pretty cool!

It WOULD be cool if Conn-Selmer "updated" the old King rotary tubas for today's players. But I think it is clear that there really isn't a market for them, and Conn-Selmer seems to cater more to the school market anyway. They don't have pros backing their horns like they did back in the Bill Bell days. Having a top pro who has a lot of clout endorse their horns would go a LONG way, but noone out there does. All of them seem to play on the (imo, boring) re-hashed York-style tubas. Even Kanstul has jumped on the "York-style only" bandwagon. But I'm with you -- the York-style tubas have been made/copied for DECADES now. Time for something else!

bort wrote:Beyond that, I don't see it as a reason to not do something, only because someone else already does it. If that were the case, there would be 1 car, 1 computer, 1 TV, etc. "Clearly different" is not something I expect. Subtle differences are where it's at.

There are a lot more people willing to pay what it takes to get a car, computer, TV. But supposing there's plenty of market out there, to split it again to make room for a brand new horn that isn't much different ... so is there a subtle difference you think we could reasonably expect, or is this just another roll of the dice?

I believe that Mr. Theinart was brought to Conn-Selmer because of his business acumen as opposed to his level of experience with tubas. Unfortunately, Conn-Selmer's primary clientele focus is school band programs. With a very successful instrument in the form of the King 2341 as well as go-to staples in marching instruments (ie the Conn 20K and King 2350 [even though their quality is not the same as it was 40-50 years ago]) and their last venture into professional level (read: niche) instruments (sometimes good, sometimes bad Conn 5XJ series) being unsuccessful, I bet they are more inclined on making the business successful as opposed to changing the market.

It would be interesting to see what you dream of, bort, but I think it's pipe-dreaming more than anything else. (No pun intended.)

I'm not sure what kind of answer you are expecting. We tuba players thrive on minor details that make things different to us. To everyone else, a tuba is a tuba is a tuba, but not to us.

My point is that nobody buys American made rotary tubas, because they don't exist. If they existed, people would buy them.

What would be the advantage of an American made rotary tuba over another one?

tuben wrote: For people who find an affinity in the sounds made by Bell/Novotny/Torchinsky on their King tubas (or Deck on his Geib Conn), there is no modern instrument to purchase and originals are difficult or impossible to obtain.

I do love the sound those men created on those horns.

Billy M. wrote:

tuben wrote: For people who find an affinity in the sounds made by Bell/Novotny/Torchinsky on their King tubas (or Deck on his Geib Conn), there is no modern instrument to purchase and originals are difficult or impossible to obtain.

I do love the sound those men created on those horns.

Trust me on this.... the sound of the King/Bell CC rotary tubas is more the player than the horn.

I think it would be a huge marketing mistake to try to reproduce them in this day and age.

Not intending to 'derail' this thread... but... the jury has always been out whether the rotors on the King rotary tubas were made in the US or purchased from European sources. I would love to know first-hand but it seems all of the craftsmen of that day are gone. Some say the valve sections were purchased from European sources and others say that HM White simply brought the craftsmen to his factory to make them.

oedipoes wrote:What would be the advantage of an American made rotary tuba over another one?

Presumably in the effective bore size.
An "American" style wrap has the mouthpipe going directly into the valve block, where a Euro style rotary wrap often goes into a vertical valve block after a longer mouthpipe with a bend. Later valves = smaller effective bore, even WITH the same valve bore size.

Euro-style (in this case Miraphone)



American-style (in this case Marzan, though built in Europe)

GregTuba79 wrote: I live down the street from the Kanstul Factory and have talk to Zig a few times about rotary tubas, he simply wants nothing to do with them. At his age and success level, why change? It's too bad his tech Troy can probably work on anything well.

I asked one of the kanstul artists about this awhile ago, their response was "what for? Pistons are faster".

There are fine piston tubas and there are fine rotory tubas.

It seems to me that rotory tubas are less popular.

Companies build things that they think they can sell. The bigger the company, the less willing they would be to make a product for a small market.

Tubas are really niche products with a small market. Professional quality tubas are even a smaller niche market. Professional quality rotor tubas are even a smaller niche market.

I'm dumbfounded by the number of choices of high quality instruments there are in today's world.

GregTuba79 wrote:

bort wrote:I dream... but any chance that with Markus Theinert being at Conn-Selmer now, that we might see a modern-era American-made rotary tuba?

In terms of American-made horns, it seems like our only choices are student-level things, sousaphones, or re-worked York designs... which are a little boring to me.

Kanstul seems like they should able to build something too, since they already make all of the parts that would be needed. However, it's clear that they aren't interested. Wasn't the west coast Miraphone territory?

I'm sure there's no domestic market for any of this (except maybe Texas, where it seems like there are/were lots of rotary tubas AND people who want American made stuff... and generally just a large tuba market). Maybe they could be exported?

I know, fat chance... but still, if someone builds one, I would buy it.

I live down the street from the Kanstul Factory and have talk to Zig a few times about rotary tubas, he simply wants nothing to do with them. At his age and success level, why change? It's too bad his tech Troy can probably work on anything well.

I think it's because there are no rotary marching instruments.

Well, maybe if I win the lottery some day, I will start the Bort Brass Co -- American made rotary brass instruments. Or at least commission one for myself.

Or Selmer could copy the Tiger tuba and not only be the first American company to make a plastic tuba but also to copy a Chinese instrument maker.
And use rotary valves.