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-Most university programs are geared towards preparing performers for symphony orchestra jobs.
-Most major symphony orchestra jobs in North America turned over in the early to late 2000s. Those jobs are now held by players in their 30s and 40s who will not reach retirement age for decades.
-Many orchestras are in a precarious financial situation and some are facing bankruptcy
-Every year a few hundred performance major tuba players graduate with a music degree
-Every year a few dozen tuba players receive DMAs
-Every year professors of small regional universities (the lucky DMAs who got teaching gigs) continue to aggressively recruit undergraduate tuba players to grow their program (just look at the audition board)
-Where will all these tuba players go when they graduate??? Only a handful will earn a living doing what they studied in school. The rest who have not developed a diversified skill set are in for tough times indeed.

I'm posting this not to discourage young players hoping to have a performing career, but to encourage: the career you're training for may be in dire straights, but you're in an excellent position to learn other skills and open up other possibilities as a performer or musical person. Arm yourselves with this information and plan your education accordingly and watch for those opportunities.

#ThingsIWishSomeoneToldMe10YearsAgo

kontrabass wrote:Only a handful will earn a living doing what they studied in school.

This is true for MOST college students, regardless of major.

Reminds me of that appearance of Roger Bobo on the Carson show in the 80s. Carson asked: "There's not a lot of tuba players are there?" Bobo responded something like: "You'd be surprised. The local university has 40 tuba majors." Carson: "Wow, the job offers must come in like mad when they graduate!" And that was the 80s when there probably were more jobs for orchestral tuba players than there are now.

bort wrote:

kontrabass wrote:Only a handful will earn a living doing what they studied in school.

This is true for MOST college students, regardless of major.

Is it more true for tuba performance majors??

Or Chemical Engineering majors??

How many times do we have to go over this? Don't encourage it.

I remember that remark--but it was Bobo that made it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NymprfjizE

There is plenty of room in the industry for anyone good enough.

How many openings for professional golfers open up each year? Here is a game/sport who's goal is to hit the ball only 18 times in a perfect game. Golf is an industry devoted to the people who like to hit a ball with a stick and then ride in a little buggy to where it last landed only to hit it again. Kids are even getting scholarships to attend universities that have golf teams. People like to play tuba and some even get scholarships to play tuba. Not everyone goes on to a professional career. This all sounds similar normal to me.

Playing tuba, some other instrument, some craft, or some sport is a way for a person to unlock their soul, grow as a person, and share a little with the world what is in their heart. Be it golf or a musical instrument, a life's journey has to start with a direction.

Is there a GolfNet community somewhere bemoaning the lack of paying jobs for professional golfers? Play the tuba or euphonium for fun and get a job in the trades if you aren't able to make a go of it as a professional musician or athlete. People will hold off seeing the doctor but if the only toilet in the house won't flush, they'll call a plumber right away.

bloke wrote: His only problems (it seems to me) are family separation, and deciding which engagements to accept and which to decline.

If he had enough public funding and grants he could stay home with his family.

Why do you hate the children??

The only way to be assured to make a living in this business today, is by making your own work. You have to be as much of a business man, as a musician.

Years ago, performance majors were encouraged to play in all styles of ensembles. Jazz, Classical, pop, it didn't matter. Work was work. When I attended Manhattan School of Music in the 80's and 90's, this was the philosophy.
Later, that school and many others turned to an Orchestral Studies major as the model, which always seemed to me myopic. My best experiences at that school were playing in the Jazz Bands and the multiple quintets that I was assigned to. Hearing groups like the Meridian Arts Ensemble and being coached by the Saturday Brass Quintet and members of the New York Brass Quintet were a revelation! One of the hardest working freelancers I have ever met who can tell this story better, is Ron Caswell. Working with bands in all genres from Second Line to Balkan Brass, Gypsy Bands, Klezmer and even Punk, he is the most versatile tuba player I've ever met. Make your own work, make it good work, and you will make a living.

I however, chose to be a band director, and I couldn't be more satisfied with my career path.

Frank Ortega wrote:The only way to be assured to make a living in this business today, is by making your own work. You have to be as much of a business man, as a musician.

Make your own work, make it good work, and you will make a living.

Agree 100% (especially as someone who is trying to work in both the "standard" teaching/playing side of things and a somewhat "non-standard" strand of contemporary music of all kinds)

Matt Walters wrote:People will hold off seeing the doctor but if the only toilet in the house won't flush, they'll call a plumber right away.

Matt, you're the man.

Matt Walters wrote:How many openings for professional golfers open up each year? Here is a game/sport who's goal is to hit the ball only 18 times in a perfect game. Golf is an industry devoted to the people who like to hit a ball with a stick and then ride in a little buggy to where it last landed only to hit it again. Kids are even getting scholarships to attend universities that have golf teams. People like to play tuba and some even get scholarships to play tuba. Not everyone goes on to a professional career. This all sounds similar normal to me.

Matt, you may be The Man.

But do you have a link to an article about the golfing major with 80k in student loans to pay after graduating with no job prospects and expects the government to "forgive" the loan??

Those of you who have figured out the industry, my congratulations, but my intended audience was the players who are currently in undergrad and graduate programs who are gunning for a symphony job. I remember the feeling very well, to quote another poster "there's room if you're good enough", and the encouragement offered by my university programs was a covert contract that "if you practice enough, you will eventually be rewarded with a job in a symphony". No problem, let me invest $30K in instruments and $80K in student loans, I'll pay it back when I score a gig. Universities are not focused on creating artists who play for the love of music or who innovate and forge their own path. They are selling the dream of doing what your teacher does.

Me and my friends had a sort of wilful ignorance to the reality of the industry. We all believed we would be the one to get Pokorny's chair in the CSO when he retires. (still waiting on that one). And any news of the financial doom and gloom befalling orchestras created an uneasy feeling in the pit of our stomachs and we would change the subject. Music school is such an incredibly tense and anxiety-fueled environment. It's very difficult to get on the path towards being a professional player and not tie your self-worth up in your success or failure. And if you are out in the world and don't have the orchestral job that you were implicitly promised, you might feel like a failure as a human being. You're in for a spiritual crisis. It seems to happen to everybody that goes through music school.

It's important that every young player know the truth about what's happening in this industry. So, yes, this thread again, and it should come up every now and then to make sure the message is getting out, that what universities are selling isn't as tangible a thing as they make it out to be, and the sooner you accept it the more chance you have of finding your own path.

kontrabass wrote: Universities are not focused on creating artists who play for the love of music or who innovate and forge their own path.

That's why I was in marching band!!

And on a related "note..."

Ohio high school band teacher resigns after secret dorn career revealed

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... Position=2" target="_blank" target="_blank

Today’s lesson: Moonlighting as a dorn star is a hard secret to keep.

A high school teacher in Ohio resigned Monday after her second life as an Internet dorn star was exposed, Fox 8 Cleveland reported.

By day, Kristin Sundman worked as an assistant band teacher at Theodore Roosevelt High School in Kent.

But in her free time, the 31-year-old was better known online as “melodyXXXtune,” the name she used for videos not safe for any school.

Her Twitter account under that name, which is now gone, indicated she appeared in X-rated clips on itscleolive.com, a dorn site run by a Tampa-based webcam girl who calls herself Cleo.

russiantuba wrote:I think the bigger issue at hand is the idea that "everyone should go to college", when some people really shouldn't go...

Yup!

russiantuba wrote:I know people who have graduate degrees in STEM fields that don't have jobs in their fields.

I think the bigger issue at hand is the idea that "everyone should go to college", when some people really shouldn't go...

Conversely, I have a STEM job with only musical degrees, and I am not the only non-traditional at my company. Honestly, my resume has been a differentiator that has kept me out of the rat race with dime-a-dozen engineer/MBA types. At the end of the day, employment and success hinges on the value you can add, not the writing on your piece of paper.

Obviously having a degree in any field doesn't guarantee success or even employment in that field, but I haven't seen any evidence that a college degree makes one less employable in general.

With that said, I think your point that the necessity of a college education should not be a foregone conclusion is a good one.

kontrabass wrote:Those of you who have figured out the industry, my congratulations, but my intended audience was the players who are currently in undergrad and graduate programs who are gunning for a symphony job. I remember the feeling very well, to quote another poster "there's room if you're good enough", and the encouragement offered by my university programs was a covert contract that "if you practice enough, you will eventually be rewarded with a job in a symphony". No problem, let me invest $30K in instruments and $80K in student loans, I'll pay it back when I score a gig. Universities are not focused on creating artists who play for the love of music or who innovate and forge their own path. They are selling the dream of doing what your teacher does.

Me and my friends had a sort of wilful ignorance to the reality of the industry. We all believed we would be the one to get Pokorny's chair in the CSO when he retires. (still waiting on that one). And any news of the financial doom and gloom befalling orchestras created an uneasy feeling in the pit of our stomachs and we would change the subject. Music school is such an incredibly tense and anxiety-fueled environment. It's very difficult to get on the path towards being a professional player and not tie your self-worth up in your success or failure. And if you are out in the world and don't have the orchestral job that you were implicitly promised, you might feel like a failure as a human being. You're in for a spiritual crisis. It seems to happen to everybody that goes through music school.

It's important that every young player know the truth about what's happening in this industry. So, yes, this thread again, and it should come up every now and then to make sure the message is getting out, that what universities are selling isn't as tangible a thing as they make it out to be, and the sooner you accept it the more chance you have of finding your own path.

The reason I don't like these threads is because they are full of cynics and jackasses having pissing contests, myself included now. But you know what? I applaud - and respect - you for doing what you want. You stuck your neck out and **** did it. When all is said and done, and you're a senile old fool, you won't be left wondering, "What if I had taken a chance and pursued my dreams?". There are plenty of roads to take in the music industry if you don't get your symphony chair. This is my opinion: A good life is not one of incredible wealth or a prosperous job, but one full of content.

As a side note, some - commonly mentally ill - are contented with bullying others, and that's fine. I think there's a career for that