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On an impulse buy I bought an old silver Conn Eb tuba, in medium "Professional" size perfectly between Standard and Giant basses. Nearly dent free, with most of its silver and sweet tat-like engraving intact, I figured it had an easy life. Plus you always hear they made the heck out of things back in the day. The thinking was that it should have nice American sound from its York-lite bell, and still be small enough to avoid tragic intonation of monster Eb's.
Turned out to be Dan Schultz's first tuba. Maybe they'll reunite for a transformation (wouldn't be first time). I'm in my window to return the thing and don't have much time, so I'm opening discussion to the TNFJ. What's the best way to improve an old Conn?

Predictably 1st valve is shot. Unfortunately valves were .625 not .656 like I had read. That was in fact the meaningless outer diameter. What's worse is that the leadpipe has a first leg going from .49 to .58 bore over about 11 inches. That would be precisely a euph leadpipe. The whole thing is powered by a euph leadpipe.

I can get a lively clean sound with a nice amount of bass, but I get worn out blowing against the resistance and lipping notes (there's not much slotting) So I'm toying with ideas like:
1. rebuild valves, put standard leadpipe on, make 1st bow after valves into a tuning slide. Maybe small bore is part of the charm, and a less anemic leadpipe will blow through it.
2. put .658 valve block on, cut lengths to Eb, link the fat side of the tuning slide into the body at .687 and mount the whole assembly at right length. This is my best idea, and you can see the xJ/1xJ similarity.
3. same with .687 block, but the body hits .750 for the fat side of the tuning slide in a bad place. Maybe a straight .687 tuning slide would work. Might get bland with the larger bore and defeat the whole point.
4. .687 block with tuning pre valves, and just run a strategic length of .687 tubing out of the valves into the body.

Is there enough merit in the body to do this? It seems to taper evenly enough to a bottom bow of reasonable enough size, and then through a bell of very normal size. There's not an obvious flaw. I like the aesthetics very much, and I like the way BBbs with very similar bells/outer bodies play.

Share experiences with franken-tubing old Conns or equivalent! Did it still have limitations, was it worth the money, ect. Or is there a better medium-sized American Eb to just plain buy?

Option 1 would change this into a Martin of the period style horn. Having one, I would say they are fun to play, have a great tone and false tones that seem to have no bottom. The answer to your question is dependent on what you want to do with the horn. If this is your main axe and you have a lot of money, the major make overs are to be considered. If this is a second or third horn, I'd do option 1, have the valves restored and enjoy the horn.

KiltieTuba wrote:Have the valves replated first, then see how you like it. If it still doesn't play like you think it should, you can sell the whole valve assembly (of more interest to people than a block needing valve work).

Use a period-size mouthpiece, it will help with the issues you've described.

This.

iiipopes wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:Have the valves replated first, then see how you like it. If it still doesn't play like you think it should, you can sell the whole valve assembly (of more interest to people than a block needing valve work).

Use a period-size mouthpiece, it will help with the issues you've described.

This.

I concur. With shot valves, you are most definitely NOT getting a clear picture of how the horn plays. Replate the valves, then reassess. I'd bet dollars to donuts it'll slot a heckuva lot better.

How much would a re-plated .525 3-valve set be worth? Just out of curiosity per the current conversation, not that I have one.

The,"questionable" notes to check will be (in order) low D, Eb in the staff, D in the staff, and Eb below the staff.

I have a larger ~1918 Conn Eb tuba with 3 valves (20j?) and I would recommend starting with a heavier valve oil. This less expensive temporary solution will help to minimize any air leakage around the worn valves and give you an idea if having the valves redone will help. I picked up one of the Monster Oil "Smoother" valve oils and it made a huge difference on how the tuba slotted and played as a whole (versus the Blue Juice I had been using previously) on the heavily worn valves. Another thing to check is the alignment of the valves to make sure you aren't having issues there as well.

If a period correct mouthpiece is not available, try using any shallow bowl shaped cup mouthpiece that you have available. This seemed to work best (for me) to get a good sound out of the instrument.

I purchased this instrument at a very low price to learn how to play Eb and haven't yet decided if I want to make any of the repairs/improvements that you have suggested so I will be watching to see what others recommend here.

Here's one place where making your own valve oil pays off, costs almost nothing and takes only a minute to prepare a little oil at whatever desired thickness. Full strength motor oil will seal her up for sure, but it will be a bit of a pain cleaning it out afterwards to get the valves moving.

KiltieTuba wrote:

58mark wrote:Can't see a 3 valve Eb valve set being worth much at all, and it would cost hundreds to get it replated

Yes, to have the whole instrument replated would cost hunderds, but to see how it plays as it should, the valve replating should cost about $100 a valve (maybe less).

Just popping in with some quick arithmetic: 3 x 100 = hundreds.

Quart of lamp oil $8 + quart of motor oil $3 = 11, probably one or two cents per application.

Thanks for ideas, I use lamp oil/STP so stiffened the ratio until valves got sluggish. Slotting is still very wide. If I play without a tuner or reference pitch, low Eb/D can be quite flat. With tuner or listening to another pitch, it's learnable.

Re: MP...any specific model? Anything currently made, or is a real antique required? Helleberg 7B is my smallest. Modern Conns of very similar bell and size like Helleberg 120/unmarked.

American shank inserts most of the way, gap of maybe 5/8 inch. British shank hits the leadpipe.

So what I want would be like a 12J but in Eb. For solo, possibly quintet and jazz. If there's a better way to get that I'd like to hear.

Also my low Bb and A are currently piss-poor. False tone can lip to A or Ab and doesn't sound good. Pedals are great.

TheGoyWonder wrote:Also my low Bb and A are currently piss-poor. False tone can lip to A or Ab and doesn't sound good. Pedals are great.

My experience is that these bad notes are a function of the design (length, taper, etc.) of the horn itself (not just your Conn, but large-ish vintage American made E flat tubas in general). I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule out there, but they are few and far between.

I would suggest trying different mouthpieces as a remedy, before tearing the horn apart in what might be a futile endeavor.

TheGoyWonder wrote:So what I want would be like a 12J but in Eb. For solo, possibly quintet and jazz. If there's a better way to get that I'd like to hear.

I believe Reynolds did make an E flat tuba comparable to the 12J.

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Sounds just like my Pan American Eb Giant Bass (a.k.a. Conn.) My guess would be that mine was built flat, like A=435 (I'm making up that number, but have the impression that while "low pitch" is often taken to mean modern standard A=440 "not high pitch", some say there was a lower pitch standard too.) Bb and A are no fun at all.

Neither of these issues responded much to mouthpiece that I could tell, but for what it's worth the 7B was my favorite with it. I also have a couple older Conn mouthpieces that are more in the bass tuba size (but with large throats), and they don't sound bad but sure don't do anything for the low end.

My repairman had a formula for horns that were suspected of having leaky valves. To see how it would play with tight valves we'd put Thick(3+1 to 30weight) oil on them. It usually completely seals everything. If you pull the slides you'll get a good pop. Of course they'll be too slow to use but you will know where the horn would be at with tight valves.I use a 1935 Martin Mammoth with very worn valves and have found a happy medium while waiting to do valve job, and it's sewing machine oil.Also, you want to make sure they are aligned correctly as that can cause them to leak. Good luck with it. Ed

I have a 1912 Martin Eb with roughly the same size dimensions as your 1919 Conn. My Martin has the tuning slide after the valves. It was a high/low pitch. Meaning it had the tuning slide extension that allowed both ranges. The problem was, if pushed the low pitch configuration all the way in or pulled the high pitch confirmation as far out as possible, I could just make it be in tune at 440. If there was any temperature change, I was out of tune. I had Lee Stofer re-plate the valves, align them, and shorten the tuning slide so I could tune at 440 and have some adjustment room. The horn is now a player. It tunes well with a great tone and the false tones below low A are easy to control and in tune (at least the first 3 are). I tell this story to encourage you to get the valves done. I think there is a good chance you will end up with what you want. I suggest you take it to a good tech for an evaluation before you do anything. He/she might have some suggestions based on experience that make answer your questions. As for mouthpieces, I've found that my Martin likes the Sellmansberg Imperial or the Stofer Geib. My Eb below the staff does require some lipping up and the F in the staff plays better with 13 versus 1, but everything else is very close. I wish you good fortune with your Conn.

Donn wrote:Sounds just like my Pan American Eb Giant Bass (a.k.a. Conn.) My guess would be that mine was built flat, like A=435 (I'm making up that number, but have the impression that while "low pitch" is often taken to mean modern standard A=440 "not high pitch", some say there was a lower pitch standard too.) Bb and A are no fun at all.

Yes - I suspect that pitch is slowly creeping up, little by little. I have the theory that the "low pitch" moniker that is found on the horns of the early 1900s is in fact a pitch that is lower than we have today. For example, my Buescher bass saxophone from 1924 is stamped "low pitch", and it plays on the low side of "modern" pitch.

Who knows, maybe in about 100 years or so, our useless "high pitch" horns may be useable again.....hold onto them!

Click and Clack say it fixes valve problems in old beaters..

Got home today and tried a WIck 2 with plumbers tape around the shank - the thing woke up! I don't even like that mouthpiece. Helleberg 7B wasn't a help. Could have just hit the right receiver gap, if that matters for tuba, but I think everybody was right about needing cup-style mouthpieces. Wick 2 is marketed as equivalent to Bach 18, so I guess cup-style.

Made some crude recordings and the sound is a lot like a sousaphone: a nice woof and fundamental, a little thin in the core, and a nice crunch from higher harmonics/noise. Works for me. Low Bb and false tones came across better than from under the bell, just not very strong.

Found one broken brace on 3rd valve possibly explaining the Bb-A deadzone, although I use 3rd alone on a lot of notes which are fine. I'm sure it's not the only broken brace, finding and fixing all broken braces could change a lot. Is B-A a dead zone on Standard (small w/ 14"-16" bell) basses? Professional is not Giant: Standard weighted 12 pounds, Professional weighted 14.5 pounds, Giant weighed 17 pounds. It might share some problems, but I don't think it shares the design flaw of a disproportionately large bottom bow or expanding to fat tubing right out of the valves.

EdFirth wrote:My repairman had a formula for horns that were suspected of having leaky valves. To see how it would play with tight valves we'd put Thick(3+1 to 30weight) oil on them. It usually completely seals everything. If you pull the slides you'll get a good pop. Of course they'll be too slow to use but you will know where the horn would be at with tight valves.I use a 1935 Martin Mammoth with very worn valves and have found a happy medium while waiting to do valve job, and it's sewing machine oil.Also, you want to make sure they are aligned correctly as that can cause them to leak. Good luck with it. Ed

With this in mind, the last time I had a horn with valves that were worn enough to consider replating, but would still play, I took an empty small valve oil bottle, filled it about half full with a conventional valve oil - in my case Roche-Thomas, and the added one drop at a time of pharmaceutical grade mineral oil until I got a balance of viscous enough to seal the valve, but not so thick as to impede valve travel. By starting half full, if you add a drop or two too much mineral oil, you add a splash of valve oil to rebalance the mixture.

I don't mean to derail the thread here, but I've been looking for one of these horns for a while. If you decide you just don't want to put the work into this instrument and would rather just sell it, please drop me a line.

Thanks,
-Bill