Is this a B&M York Master OR made by York OR a stencil?

[joh_tuba]

I have here with me two VERY similar horns.

The satin silver horn is clearly labeled York Master and I believe to be a Bohm & Meinl made instrument.

The other horn is labeled 'Standard Model' York Grand Rapids, MI Serial #1212XX. Number can be found on both body and bell. They match.

As you can see in the pictures they are EXTREMELY similar. Similar bracing, tenons, bows, valve wrap etc. Bells are interchangeable despite construction differences in the tenon.

Differences:
1) Engraving on bell looks like something you might find on a vintage Conn.
2) Piston bodies are much larger diameter on the Standard Model Grand Rapids tuba.
3) Bore through valve section is VERY similar(about 3/4") BUT tubing and crook dimensions are just enough different that many of them can't be swapped out.
4) Small side of main slide is larger bore on Standard Model Grand Rapids tuba. Large side very similar.

Pictures of York Master: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2Qfb ... 2x6VTFEU0E

Pictures of York Standard Model: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing

Regarding both horns but especially the 'Standard Model' what are we looking at and what's it worth?

Thanks!

[Alex C]

I'm a bit out on a limb, and only going from my experience of seeing about a dozen of each model.

1) All of the York-made "Yorks" have the graceful curve of the main tubing and the 4th valve tubing going under the leadpipe. The B&M made instrument do not have that time consuming feature for the fourth valve tubing. 2) The name "Grand Rapids" indicated and instrument made by York, possibly their student line but every Grand Rapids tuba I have seen (admittedly not a lot) has been a York tuba.

Neither of your instruments are B&M.

[windshieldbug]

Both horns are from after Carl Fisher took over York and started swapping horns and assemblies between the makers they owned or sourced from.

It seems to me that horns in the 6xxxxx range were made by B&M. Sometimes completely, so that they carry the "Germany" embossed into the horn someplace.

The engraving of the 1212xx horn is typical of the engraving pattern that was done right when the company was transferred. They only used this design for a couple of years. The serial number fits into the Grand Rapids sequence. "Standard" was only a model name which was used after the sale. Fischer apparently played fast and loose with both entire instruments and assemblies like valve blocks, so it certainly seems logical that both horns would share many characteristics if not actual parts...

[roweenie]

1. B & M

2. York

I owned a badged "York Master" at one time that was very similar to the York 716, right down to the characteristic 4th valve wrap. However, when placed next to my "actual" 716, they were a little different from each other.

I have found that there are extremely subtle differences between the "York" Yorks, and the "B&M" York(master)s, but they are there (of which the OP touched on several of them).

As a side note, there are also subtle differences between the fixed bell 712 and the detachable bell 716 (other than the obvious 4th valve wrap) but that's a different topic altogether.....

[bort]

The satin silver one is definitely B&M -- the square-ish valve slide crooks are the giveaway.

What a great looking horn!

[Tabor]

The silver one is a YM by B&M. Earlier style, beautiful shape.

The second one is a York, no question. The engraving is a York pattern, the ferrules, big brace on the leadpipe, 4th bracing & bell screws at the top of the tenon give it away.

[imperialbari]

The York Master is very similar to mine. It differs from mine by being in a much better shape dentwise, by being in frosted silver (which might not be original), and by having a much more readable bell engraving.

The York Masters came with two different wraps of the 4th loop. This one has most of the 4th tubing inside the body (like mine). There is one bad drawback to this wrap: the top slides on the front cannot be reached through the body. The left arm has to go over the top bow, which I find very awkward. The other variant had the 4th loop in a huge open wrap attached to the back of the main frame. I don’t have any first hand experience with that wrap, but owners have found the 4th loop tubing being very exposed to denting. From my point of view this wrap could have been great, if its tuning slide had been on the top, preferably with a very strong bracing, which could have allowed for a very long 4th pull. But the tuning slide is at the bottom and doesn’t really allow for slide manipulation.

A couple of matters might give away the York Master as being made on the European continent. The thickness of the sheet metal and the threading of the valve caps maybe adhere to metric standards. I don’t know whether B&M was tooled up from the US after WWII or whether B&M had German tooling that had survived the war. The Böhm and Meinl names rather suggests that the company owners were fugitives from Sudeten part of Bohemia. The Czechs had been very badly treated during the nazi occupation and they were no kind, when they took revenge on their German speaking minority, the Sudetendeutsche.

Klaus

[Frank Ortega]

I have always found that the B&M York Masters were MUCH heavier than the Grand Rapids tubas.

Have you compared the weights?

[joh_tuba]

I'll check the weights soon.

I don't recall the Master saying made in Germany anywhere on it. I've just always assumed anything marked York Master was really a B&M.

The satin-silver York Master was fully overhauled(pretty satin finish and valves rebuilt) many years ago. When purchased by the current owner the fourth valve was completely mangled. It was rebuilt from scratch with great care to 'preserve as much original metal as possible'. If you look at the pictures you can see the white nylon that was injected into the valve body to create the ports. This makes the fourth valve a lot heavier BUT when in playing position it feels just like the other valves and plays great.

I would love to see how nice the Grand Rapids York would play if rebuilt with the same TLC as the Master.

One person guessed the Grand Rapids York to be worth possible three grand in current condition. Is that fair?
What price might you put on the Master?

HUGE thanks to everyone that has so freely offered their time and knowledge. This is an interesting bit of history.

Anyone in the KC area that would like to play these next to each other please PM me.

[Donn]

One person guessed the Grand Rapids York to be worth possible three grand in current condition. Is that fair?

I don't think you've said much about current condition, particularly the pistons.

[joh_tuba]

The Grand Rapids York valves are light and fast however they don't have excellent compression. Despite this it plays well as it sits. I would imagine most folks wouldn't know to be bothered BUT I would have them rebuilt if it were my horn.

In the picture you can see LOTS of patches on the leadpipe BUT whoever did the work did an EXCELLENT job. All the slides move well.

[roweenie]

If it says grand rapids, that was where it was made and an original York from around 1938. I think a recent York 4/4 with 4 valves of the same model went for a fairly high price. 3 grand or something...

I think that particular horn was in a considerably better condition than this one. Also, IIRC, it languished for several months and went through a few price drops before it sold.

I would imagine most folks wouldn't know to be bothered BUT I would have them rebuilt if it were my horn.

So, what exactly is the deal with these horns? Do you own them and want to know more about them, or are you trying to sell them for someone else? Inquiring minds need to know....

[joh_tuba]

They are both for sale on consignment at a local shop that I work for part time. The shop is not a Tubenet sponsor(and isn't likely to be in the future) so I'm making a point of not identifying it. It's a weird line to walk but I think it's important to respect the sponsor/non-sponsor boundary here. If they doesn't sell locally it'll most likely appear on eBay.

Being the token tuba player I was tasked with figuring out what it was and a reasonable selling price. In addition, I was reasonably confident that seeing pictures of the two horns and working out the puzzle would be fun for a lot of folks here.

I'm genuinely thankful for the help!

If anyone wants/needs more pictures and details/measurements etc post your questions here and I'll be happy to answer them. The least I can do is try to add to the knowledge base on these horns.

[imperialbari]

The commercial context, horns to be so;d by a dealership, maybe should have been revealed up front. I am willing to debate with plain TubeNet members. Maybe also within commercial contexts, but if so I prefer knowing about that context before I write.

Klaus