Buzzing and Corners

[apsapienza]

I've got a flute student who is switching to tuba. Their corners are pulled backwards when they buzz, not necessarily upwards though. I've told them to focus on bringing the corners down. Isolating away form the mouthpiece and horn. Their efforts are largely fruitless, as though they've learned how to produce a buzz in an incorrect way. The resulting sound on the horn is pinched.

Any advice/tools/techniques on how to get this problem resolved?

[apsapienza]

I don't find that "corners" are as much of an issue as a closed-down mouth position.

Players who play the tuba with a jaw position set more for playing the trumpet (closed teeth) are going to get a (your word) "pinched" sound.

When the teeth are open enough to play the tuba, the "corners" are going to be forced to do what they need to do.

I will try this. I did try to evaluate how much space there was in their jaw, and it seemed accurate, but I will check again.

[Ken Crawford]

Nothing opens up the teeth and oral cavity like a breathing tube (pvc pipe) and some breathing exercises.

[Roger Lewis]

I would bet my bottom dollar she is buzzing the lower lip against the upper instead of the upper lip vibrating against the lower. This would create the pinched, annoying sound. Ask her which lip is "doing the work". I've encountered a lot of students playing this way with exactly that sound.

Roger

[Alex C]

My advice, don't worry or focus on mechanics. Focus on sound. Is she getting a sound? Describe the sound, sing the sound she is getting and then describe what you want.


I have personally found in my teaching and playing that letting sound motivate function improves playing, instead of over analysis. When I play, I never focus on my lips, my corners, or any of that. I focus on retelling the musician story and singing in my head through my sound. "Be storytellers of sound".

I only go mechanics as a last resort, and haven't had to yet...

You, sir, have earned my recommendation as a teacher worth going to. That little bit you posted is the key to playing and teaching well. Props.

[jsmn4vu]

...I see a significant gap between my lips (just as with bassoon/oboe reed blades, a clarinet/sax reed clamped to a mouthpiece, etc.).

Pretty sure a high-speed motion video will show those reeds touching at one point of each vibration cycle, just as our lips must in order to produce the buzz. Doctoral project, anyone?

[apsapienza]

I used to say drop the jaw and all that. I now say talk saying EEEEEEEE and then say OOOOOOOOOOH. I now say open up your sound and think of saying OOOOOO instead of EEEEE. It works, because they can visualize a sound and produce it.

I tried this approach yesterday too. I like the modeling advice. I'll keep working at it, and telling her to focus on the sound, because I absolutely agree when people say there's great value in focusing on the sound. However, I also think their current upper range (D in staff and above) are affected by this mechanic. It would seem easier to me that when the corners are pulled back, or up, the range is affected. At least that what happened to me in my personal experiences.

For context, the student is a college sophomore education major who switched to march sousa in the marching band. Yesterday was the first lesson I had with them.

[Three Valves]

...I see a significant gap between my lips (just as with bassoon/oboe reed blades, a clarinet/sax reed clamped to a mouthpiece, etc.).

Pretty sure a high-speed motion video will show those reeds touching at one point of each vibration cycle, just as our lips must in order to produce the buzz. Doctoral project, anyone?

I prefer my Doctors cure cancer.

Not internet memes!!

[toobagrowl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc4jS2-tF8s

[greenbean]

...

If you've never handled sax and clarinet reeds, they are far more rigid than you possibly are imagining (much more like a brass player's lips - held firmly into an "embouchure" position)...and the gap between the tip of the reed and the tip of a mouthpiece is wider than a reed can comfortably be bent. (i.e. if you bend someone's reed as far as would be required to make the tip of that reed touch the tip of a mouthpiece, that reed's owner might well whack you a good one, and demand that you immediately get away from their horn.)
...

???

As a long-time reed player, I have handled my share of reeds...

The reed definitely touches the mouthpiece. Light pressure from my thumb will push the reed flat against the mouthpiece. With my clarinet set-up I have a 1.05 mm gap between reed and mouthpiece. (There are other reasons I don't let people touch my clarinet!) If the reed doesn't touch the mouthpiece while playing, you won't like the sound you get! During each cycle, the reed bends toward the mouthpiece and seals up against it, touching the side rails and tip rails of the mouthpiece. In fact, if you take a nice-playing mouthpiece and put a good scratch or nick across one of the rails, breaking the seal, it will no longer play well.

But perhaps this is a topic for another thread...

[Donn]

How about the upper/lower lip division of labor?

I'm a big fan of the Wilktone thing (see above video link), and from that perspective I'd have to guess that it might be a little more complicated - he has all these examples of great players with so much rim on the upper lip, you have to wonder how that same upper lip could possibly also be doing all the buzzing?

But the picture of a corner pull immobilizing the upper lip, in combination with a high placement embouchure - that does sound like trouble. The fix might be playing more with the upper lip - or experimenting with placement.

[ The way I understand it, reeds touch the mouthpiece facing - or not, depending on how you play. The smooth clear sound at lower dynamic levels is the reed simply oscillating in the air stream; the more strident tone at higher dynamic levels is at least partly the mouthpiece tip interfering with oscillation when the reed strikes it. ]

[jsmn4vu]

...so you're actually claiming that you believe that the TIP (vibrating portion) of your reed bends itself upward when you blow air between the reed and mouthpiece (even though you're blowing air-under-pressure between the reed tip and mouthpiece tip) - so that the reed touches the tip of your clarinet/saxophone mouthpiece (with the tip of the reed oscillating up-and-down an entire millimeter hundreds of times each second - striking the tip of the mouthpiece during each oscillation), and that (again, a percussive effect) is what creates the sound the instrument makes...??

Why is that so difficult for you? How much does it really matter in the greater scheme of things? Finally, while I doubt you can disprove it, if you can (to the satisfaction of a scientist), I have a contribution cued up for your favorite charity. Seriously. (Yeah, I suppose that really does fall into the category of "put up or shut up." Sorry.)

[jsmn4vu]

To some (a few...??? hopefully, more than a few...??) it becomes quite obvious here why I do not teach...particularly not grown-ups.

You've never taught woodwinds, either, right? (I do say that in the friendliest possible way.)

[jsmn4vu]

You've never taught woodwinds, either, right? (I do say that in the friendliest possible way.)

more guessing...??

That, and there are too many things you would know if you had. You are reasoning impressively correctly from faulty assumptions. I have extensive experience with that, myself.

In this study, it is reported that the tip contacts the mouthpiece for about 25 percent of each cycle. Actual empirical data:
https://books.google.com/books?id=AHU2d ... ed&f=false" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Three Valves]

I'm taking a VERY close look at the wax paper in my kazoo tonight!!

[luke_hollis]

All my buzzing on the MP has my corners moving forward. I try to make a wall of the face against the MP. If that makes sense.

[Donn]

I think I get that. It might would put more lip in place, am I right? As opposed to drawing the lips thin.

...and (once again) is the metal reed on a jaw harp striking one or both side of the frame in order for it's frequency to vibrate? If not, why does it continue to make a sound after the player's finger has flicked it?

Instruments don't all operate on the same physical principles. That thing in the jaw harp may look like a reed to the casual observer, but it sure isn't one, and it's about as relevant a physical analog as a guitar string would be. Reeds operate on an air stream, and while (I maintain) they don't need to perfectly close during each oscillation, they do need to come close enough to substantially impinge on the airstream. Whether they strike or not is really a fine point that doesn't have much to do with the basic principles - and of course even less to do with the question of whether pulling your corners cause a thin sound on the tuba. I can see the connection to lips closing during buzz, but then I lose track - did someone have some reason to think her tone issue would have anything to do with whether lips are touching or not?

[tubajon]

I have studied with two main teachers. One advocated for no corners. The other for M lips. What does it mean? If you get a world-class sound and can articulate clearly who cares?