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Eb must be silver so one can polish them up and play them in a British Brass Band!!

I agree with what Mark said. I play Eb exclusively and have been able to meet the needs of all the groups I play with. One other thing worth mentioning, I play in a tuba quarter (2 euphoniums, and 2 tubas). The first tuba part is a bit high for the BBb player, but fits into the range of an Eb very easily.

A "few years" back - well several "few years" back, I was with the Salvation Army for about 10 years and assigned a beautiful EEb Besson Sovereign. I may have posted here before that it felt like the most perfect tuba acoustically speaking. It was so consistent top to bottom with regard to sound, response and intonation. I used it in some orchestral settings and it was superb. The bass trombonist loved the way it focused and locked into the entire sound of the bone section. It also had the depth to respectably support the orchestra in the low and loud sections. My only contention was that I initially approached the instrument from the treble clef (Bb) brass band perspective. Having been a Mu-Ed major in college, trumpet fingerings were well engrained in the back of my mind. Even though the Bass Clef looks more or less like the Eb treble clef, there are all the accidentals that did not translate verbatim from one clef to another. I never felt totally comfortable with it in Bass Clef even though I play all the other tubas (BBb, CC, & F, plus euph and bass trombone) in BC. (I confess some of the issue is my ADD and dyslexic tendencies) I also felt for me, the Eb, in the orchestra setting, presented some clumbsy and tricky fingering issues in the low register that were not so problematic on the CC or F tuba. But perhaps if the EEb were my main "go to" tuba and if I were ultimately and consummately familiar with ALL the ins and outs, that would not be an issue. There are many great players in the UK using the EEb in the orchestra with fine success. When I retired from the SA, I gave back the EEb and resumed my playing on F and CC. Those were my roots. I never went back to the EEb. I might add that I do use a BMB 6/4 F tuba which I along with some others, believe is one of the finer Eb tubas out there, albeit it that it is pitched in F. I suppose my point is that I do wish to give considerable validity to the EEb, especially to some of the finer modern instruments, Besson, Willson, BMB, MW, Miraphone etc. My belief is that if you take the time to master it, it will serve you well as an all around instrument.

If I remember correctly, there are even a number of pros here in the US that use Eb tubas as their primary bass tuba (or primary tuba period).

Jay Bertolet is one such fellow as are Rex Martin, and Marty Erickson.

I have played the usual suspects (BBb, CC, F) but have found that I really enjoy playing Eb for my bass tuba. I'm still working out the fingers (in bass clef) but find it has an attractive unmeasureable quality I prefer over F. This could always change.

Perhaps we'll see something of a similar nature with Eb tubas as we are starting to see with BBb tubas in major orchestras (right horn with the right sound for the job).

bigbob wrote:So what I know is the BBb's are for the bands.

Eb is for bands, too. If you look at classic music for band - take for example "Liberty Bell", John Phillip Sousa - the "Basses" part has two parts sharing the same line. Sometimes the same notes, sometimes an octave apart, but the upper part never descends below Bb below the staff. That's our bass tuba, and in the US would have been an Eb tuba. The 1927 "School Band Contests" booklets suggests that your band have 2 Eb tubas and 2 Bb tubas.

I think it could be argued that the bass tuba has been unjustly neglected by tuba players and directors alike over the years since then. Several causes. Maybe its most fatal flaw is that it's kind of a specialty instrument: between the two, both player and director will see the BBb tuba as the more important of the two, so it's what most players would rather play. Maybe the Eb doesn't matter much at all - it will ideally have a different timbre when playing its part, but most BBb players can manage on the upper part and I dare say few directors would notice the difference.

Perhaps partly in reaction to that, there has been a trend to make Eb tubas very large, for a bass tuba, using contrabass tuba bells and so forth, hoping to attract players who want to be able to play both sides of the fence. This can come at the expense of the real virtues of a bass tuba and usually at the expense of intonation, and in the end it rarely if ever can compete with a BBb tuba below C below the clef anyway, but these tubas continue to be more sought after on the market, because of how tuba players are.

So the Eb tuba is pretty much gone in the US because band players and directors have never liked it much. When they buy an Eb tuba, it's the exception that proves the rule - an Eb tuba that does its best to pretend to be a BBb. That's my theory this morning.

In addition to all the above, and especially before World War II, a small to moderate sized Eb tuba was also used commonly as a beginner's tuba, or for a person switching from cornet or trumpet to tuba. Again, due to its smaller size, and because with the relative fingerings to the lines and spaces between bass and treble clef for concert band music, it was for many players an easier transition than to switch to BBb tuba.

Post-WWII, the main uses of an Eb tuba are (in no particular order):
1) to play certain parts in British-style brass bands, as a standard compliment instrument; most famously the models used until recently were/are the Boosey/Besson Imperial, New Standard and Sovereign 4-valve compensator models, as the tuba parts are usually divided with a brass band having both Eb and BBb tubas;
2) as set forth above, the right tuba can substitute for a CC tuba in a variety of settings: orchestral, band, other smaller and/or mixed ensembles, and these can be anything from 4-valve compensator tubas to piston and rotor conventional tubas of all bore and bell sizes and configurations, usually 5-valve;
3) small ensemble horn, like a brass quintet, occasionally used instead of an F tuba if the Eb isn't too large, and the repertoire is complimentary;
4) the older "saxhorn" styles and "over-the-shoulder" styles are used for 19th century performance practice ensembles and Civil War reenactment bands;
4) and many folks have one just because - to have a tuba at each pitch, and/or for personal enjoyment, etc.

iiipopes wrote:In addition to all the above, and especially before World War II, a small to moderate sized Eb tuba was also used commonly as a beginner's tuba, or for a person switching from cornet or trumpet to tuba. Again, due to its smaller size, and because with the relative fingerings to the lines and spaces between bass and treble clef for concert band music, it was for many players an easier transition than to switch to BBb tuba.

Post-WWII, the main uses of an Eb tuba are (in no particular order):
1) to play certain parts in British-style brass bands, as a standard compliment instrument; most famously the models used until recently were/are the Boosey/Besson Imperial, New Standard and Sovereign 4-valve compensator models, as the tuba parts are usually divided with a brass band having both Eb and BBb tubas;
2) as set forth above, the right tuba can substitute for a CC tuba in a variety of settings: orchestral, band, other smaller and/or mixed ensembles, and these can be anything from 4-valve compensator tubas to piston and rotor conventional tubas of all bore and bell sizes and configurations, usually 5-valve;
3) small ensemble horn, like a brass quintet, occasionally used instead of an F tuba if the Eb isn't too large, and the repertoire is complimentary;
4) the older "saxhorn" styles and "over-the-shoulder" styles are used for 19th century performance practice ensembles and Civil War reenactment bands;
4) and many folks have one just because - to have a tuba at each pitch, and/or for personal enjoyment, etc.

I think the main reason the Eb disappeared from the US was cost. Schools could afford few tubas, so they chose BBb because that matched the Sousaphones available. This was especially true when the plastic/fiberglass sousas became available. I don't think it was a matter of "like", I think it was a matter of economics. Besides, have more than one key of tuba meant the band director had to know more fingerings. It is hard enough for a non tuba playing band director to manage BBb let alone multiple fingerings. Currently, almost all high schools have BBb tubas and use them for everything. They don't have F, or C or Eb, so most people learn BBb.

Somebody who plays Eb exclusively is Oystein Baadsvik. You should enjoy hearing what he does with Eb:

http://www.baadsvik.com

Psssh.... Eb tubas are for British people. This country was founded by a bunch of people who didn't want to be British anymore. Don't drag us back in history, Bob. USA! USA! USA!



But really, there are a lot of great Eb tubas out there, in all kinds of sizes and styles. I've never gotten "into" them, but maybe for lack of availability more than anything else. They're simply not as common as other tubas, so when I've been in places to try out horns, they just aren't there. I'm not against them... but at this point, another set of fingerings isn't high on my "to do list."

bort wrote:I'm not against them... but at this point, another set of fingerings isn't high on my "to do list."

... pansy.

Billy M. wrote:

bort wrote:I'm not against them... but at this point, another set of fingerings isn't high on my "to do list."

... pansy.

Oh yeah, I'll show you! Oh, wait...

opus37 wrote:I don't think it was a matter of "like", I think it was a matter of economics.

Well, with "like" vs economics and whatever else, we're talking about tradeoffs. If people in the US band scene cared a lot about the bass tuba for some reason, things might have gone a little different. Should they have cared? or is it crowded enough in there, between the BBb tubas, euphoniums, trombones etc. that the timbre of a real bass tuba on that upper line really isn't worth the trouble?

I think the "need" for a bass tuba in a concert band may not a strong one.

I do believe, however, that having a bass tuba in the section does help give the tuba section sound more definition, but in a concert band, with the sonic competition from the euphoniums, trombones, bari sax, bass & contrabass clarinets...etc. Those subtle positive effects may well be lost in the sauce.

Having said all of that, I do think that it is worth doing, for those moments when the bass line is exposed.

Just listen to Pat Sheridan play his E flat. He can do anything and more on his E flat than I can do on my CC and that goes for most of us. I find as I get older that my Besson 983 E flat is quite a bit easier to play that my Miraphone 1293. I think that it has more to do with the player than what key the instrument is pitched in. Phil

I'm somewhat of an amateur who owns 11 tubas, nine of which are Eb. I was started on Eb in the 8th grade back in 1961 and switched over to BBb when I started high school that fall. I played BBb continuously through high school and college graduating with a BME in music ed in 1970. After I went back to college I got interested in U.S. military band history and found that bands in the late 19th century used primarily Eb tubas. I started buying old Eb's and now that is almost all I use. I think they blend well with the BBb's most of my fellow players use. My favorite is a York which I purchased 3 years ago from Lee Stofer.

lost wrote:Much of the band literature in the U.S. is written with contrabass ranges in mind.

Could I ask for some specifics there? Earlier I mentioned what I consider the classic US band literature, stuff from a century ago that is mostly what I know. I'd say that's written with both ranges in mind. I've also played a little more recent stuff but don't have them - aside from crap like Broadway tune arrangements that I'm not curious about at all there were a couple composers like Vincent Persichetti, Norman Dello Joio - what do those charts look like? Contrabass only, or is there a bass too?

The Eb tuba is the most adaptable pitch of tuba - a true do anything tuba. Not the best for every purpose, but if you want one tuba to cover all playing situations, the Eb tuba - in particular, the 3+1 compensated Eb is the most versatile of tubas.

Despite having tubas in all pitches at my disposal, 90% of the time I take along an Eb

bloke wrote:As far as a real Eb tuba PART in wind-band (particularly where woodwinds are included) scoring is concerned, there really isn't a tremendous need (at least, in the opinion of one bloke). [1] The euphonium is pitched an octave above the BBb tuba, and [2] harmonies other than octaves (even 5ths) in the tuba range tend to rumble, and are widely considered (other than special effects - such as a "drone" sound) to be "poor voicing"...

But that is what the tuba parts do in the classic US band stuff, they're at octaves, and it's usually clear enough that it's for musical effect. That was the age of band music, too - Sousa was kind of like if Elvis had joined the Beatles, he was extremely popular - so one might suppose that to some extent they knew what they were doing. (And it's clear as could be that it's about Eb tuba - the low end of the upper voice is A below the staff. In the earliest charts they'd put the euphonium in there too, under the name "Bb bass", but those parts turned into 3rd trombone. The modern euphonium isn't really well suited to bass lines, in my humble opinion.)

It's great voicing for that kind of ensemble. When the line goes up, in a context where it could get lost in the racket, you might double it an octave below; when it goes down where the pitch gets fuzzy, you might double it an octave above. I'm sure there's more to it than this formula, but that's a rough idea - the part isn't divided all the way through, just where it's useful to do so, to make a more robust bass line.

But we don't establish a need for Eb tuba that way, just a use for it. The next question is whether the voicing sounds significantly better with a bass tuba on the upper voice.

58mark wrote:It's my observation that they wrote in octaves when the lower part goes down to a low Bb or below, which are notes that are precarious or impossible on a 3 valve Eb tuba

Yes, for sure, so obviously there they're writing for an Eb tuba. But it isn't just about compass, you'll see one passage with some doubled notes and then another that's the same notes but none doubled. Maybe it's more effective to see what we're talking about - An Eb tuba has a fine low C, for example, so sometimes where it suits the line they're together on that note. I'm not going to second guess John Phillip Sousa on the reasons for this voicing. As far as I'm concerned if he wrote it that way, it's right. Like I say, the question is whether bass tuba(s) would sound significantly better on the upper voice. That doesn't mean necessarily Eb-technically-bass-tubas-made-to-contrabass-specs, I mean a bass tuba meant to play as such.