F-tuba in Brass Band ??

[AndyCat]

@Andy There was some discussion on this a couple of years ago. Is this recent, or has it been this way for a while? Last time I looked up British rules online, they seemed pretty definite. Is it a matter of different sponsoring groups having different rules, or am I totally missing the point?

Different contests have different rules, but people have used all sorts and never been pulled!

[GC]

Thanks.

[marccromme]

....
we have a stellar tuba section with an F, Eb CC, and several BBbs. ...
So all you tuba players on Fs and CCs. Keep at it.

Thanks Paul, you convinced me that I rather should find the instrument that swings with me , be it F or Eb, and that blends with the others, than insiting on playing a 19" bell Eb monstrum.

Now I only have to find my dream tuba ..

[Biggs]

To play a B-flat treble clef bass part on CC tuba, you make like you're reading bass clef, add two sharps, and use F tuba fingerings. There are some adjustments for accidentals.

OR

Read tenor clef and add two flats to the key signature.
Prayer is best for accidentals. Example: A written f-double sharp (fx), is played as a concert f-natural.

OR

Don't try to use some kind of 'quick-change' gimmick; just read the music. Going from C bass clef on a CC tuba to Bb treble clef on a CC tuba isn't any different from going from C bass clef on a CC tuba to C bass clef on an F tuba.

If you're looking to add Bb treble as a musical language that you feel comfortable reading, I recommend getting a novice trumpet etude book and replacing your regular practice routine with it for a week or so.

[michael_glenn]

Unless you're a competitive band, and there are rules against it, do whatever you want. My brass band has two CC tubas on the BBb part, an Eb, F and CC on the Eb part. (I still think the CC on the Eb part is weird. Why have a bass and contrabass part distinctly, but play the wrong tuba?) When I was only the Eb part, I started on a CC, decided it was too much contrabass and was the wrong sound. I then switched to an F. Worked great. Now I'm on the BBb part (great low register work out) and use my CC tuba.

[Biggs]

...
OR

Read tenor clef and add two flats to the key signature.
Prayer is best for accidentals. Example: A written f-double sharp (fx), is played as a concert f-natural.

OR

Don't try to use some kind of 'quick-change' gimmick; just read the music. Going from C bass clef on a CC tuba to Bb treble clef on a CC tuba isn't any different from going from C bass clef on a CC tuba to C bass clef on an F tuba.

If you're looking to add Bb treble as a musical language that you feel comfortable reading, I recommend getting a novice trumpet etude book and replacing your regular practice routine with it for a week or so.

OR

You don't view learning to read tenor clef as a 'quick-change' gimmick, but rather a tool that then enables you to read BOTH tenor clef and treble clef Bb until that treble clef reading becomes second nature like it did for me.
I've been playing CC tuba on Bb bass parts for more than 20 years, 26 years total brass banding.

true dat. I didn't mean to disparage/discourage gaining the ability to read tenor clef - it's just as valuable as reading Bb treble or any other notation - and apologize if it came across as such. I just don't think there's a need to learn to read tenor clef in order to learn to read Bb treble. If someone's complaining about learning to read Bb treble, I'd imagine they'd complain twice as much about learning to read tenor clef and Bb treble.

[TheGoyWonder]

The positives of B&H or real-Besson basses, which carry into fake-Besson for the most part:
Impeccable intonation
Thumpy tone production without any splat, woof, or German burpiness.
Perfect place in the mix- doesn't swamp euphs with excessive warmness or bury delicate sounds of bari/tenor horns.
Dry piano sound like a bowed string bass
Towering ff sound like an organ - not booming, just really thick.
(Eb version) really, really loud without much player effort.

A lot of other tubas are going to be too warm, too smooth, too dynamic, too even across dynamic levels, too widely pitched. Most bougie tubas are going for the wannabe-orchestra market and are designed to sound entirely unlike the classic BBB sound. I'll have to agree, perfect playing is perfect playing, but it's the particular granularities that make it sound interesting.

Appropriate substitutes (Eb) could include the Yamaha YEB-321, Kanstul 66, or any of zillion Sovereign lookalikes. Killer low range not really needed for Eb part, they don't go under a Bb very often. In fact it's better to sound thin down there so all the infernal open fifths don't rumble too badly.

[marccromme]

There are two Sovereign models, the 3+1 980, and the front-action 983, that both have the smaller 17 inch bell.

Yes. I am aware of the existence of these, but I don't think there are any around near Copenhagen I could try. There is also a compensating Hirsbrunner with an 17" bell, the Wessex solo with an 16.75" bell, and probably other Eb compensated horns with 17" bells i do not know about.

Does anybody here on the form has experinece with one of these? Do they play well? Do they work well in a british style brass band?

[marccromme]

Since I am struggeling with a very old Besson monster-size 19" bell Eb tuba with interesting intonation (I had to shorten it 4 cm to get it up to 442 Hz) and unprecise slotting, I am on the outlook for a new instrument.

... ok, it feels like a strugggle to me, but today I was just returning from the Danish Brass Band competitions, our Band got a 1. place in the 2. division (we have elite, 1. 2. and 3. division here in Denmark). ... and I did not spoil our winner position, even if I only had a tuba in my hands for 3 month now. That feels great.

That said, I feel still uncomfortable on a 19" bell Eb bass, and will keep outlook for a slightly smaller instrument. Thanks for your valuable input, it's great to have joined this community.

[Patrase]

There are two Sovereign models, the 3+1 980, and the front-action 983, that both have the smaller 17 inch bell.

Yes. I am aware of the existence of these, but I don't think there are any around near Copenhagen I could try. There is also a compensating Hirsbrunner with an 17" bell, the Wessex solo with an 16.75" bell, and probably other Eb compensated horns with 17" bells i do not know about.

Does anybody here on the form has experinece with one of these? Do they play well? Do they work well in a british style brass band?

I play in a brass band that has had the smaller 17 inch bell 983, Miraphone Nowegian Star and the Willson front action Eb at various times. Plus the 19inch sovereign. Our first trombonist told me he doesn't like the smaller belled tubas, he thinks they sound too small. He is no tuba expert but knows the classic brass band sound. I think the 983 and Willson sound big enough bit the Norwegian star sounds too focused and doesn't blend at loud dynamics. Playing Bb bass I listen to the Eb for tuning. The Norwegian star and Willson seem to have intonation tendencies that are the opposite to me so I prefer playing with Besson or their copies.

I think that unless you have players who are good enough to listen and adjust intonation, or not too arrogant to believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, then you are better off having the same style of tubas in your section.

I have played a Wessex solo and played all the other Eb's listed above. The Willson or Wessex solo would be my pick. The new front action Wessex Eb could be good too. However for brass band the 3 + 1 fingering makes the technical playing much easier. I have seen the front action players struggle and complain about the fast passages whereas the 3+1 players find those technical passages easier.

Whatever you choose play a 2 octave chromatic scale with your other Eb player before each rehearsal. As you do remember how you get in tune with each other on each note. I do that with my fellow Bb bass player and it really helps us lock in our intonation. (I wish the 983 and Norwegian star players did that before tonight's rehearsal.....)

[Michael Bush]

The Brass Band of Battle Creek: all front-action tubas. I believe the Eb tubas are in fact pitched in Eb. At least one of the "BBb" tubas is a CC, and I suspect they both are.

[DouglasJB]

It looks like one of the "BBb's" is a PT6P

[Peach]

I understand that "you show up with the army you have", but it is awkward for opposite-facing-bells tuba players to sit with each other.

Absolutely agree in brass band where a section of four can be a pain with one of each bell direction on Eb AND Bb . However if you find yourself in a two-person section it's just fine (aside from looking odd). You can even share music and organise page turns like those stringers do... This is equally true in brass band when only one of the section has a different bell 'pointage' to the rest,so the odd one out sits on whichever end suits.

[Peach]

To the OP. I can only think of one absolute top class player who used a 17" bell 980 Eb in brass band and that was Les Neish, who is now focusing on his solo playing I believe except for the occasional visit to play for BBBC. So that leaves nobody in top British bands playing 17" bell models. Saying that, they could, but just don't.
The 980 works just as well as a 19" equivalent and, having owned one, I couldn't tell the difference when recorded between the different bell sizes. 15" models do sound a bit different but there are other variables.
Bottom line - I'm sure you can make most things work if you put the right effort in.

[TheGoyWonder]

A bunch of different tubas can sound good - in a symphonic band. Meaning lots of different instruments, not just a euphemism for concert band. British brass band is anti-symphonic, that's kind of the whole point.

Matched instruments is the easiest way for players to reinforce each other and find clarity for their voice. It's not lazy, it's just smart to eliminate the easy variables right off the bat. Section-to-section tuning is still an issue, but the problems are much easier to isolate. Plus the players can offer real suggestions to each other beyond the usual exchange of "figure it out".

At the so-called US Open, a lot of guys were using 15" Imperials/New Standards and these were the standout sections, other than Fountain City who were strangely made to open and missed by the other bands. Some sections were using 19" Sovereign/equivalent and they were...there. Any F tuba use was non-egregious. No chance to observe a proper Bb bass. Anyways the Eb Imperial, probably with Wick 2/3, is confirmed as excellent and as clearly different from the Sovereign.

[Michael Bush]

and Zerkel is playing on a HB 2P CC.

Yes. That's the tuba that convinced me in under a minute that I wanted a 2P. The one I got isn't quite as nice as his, but then again I'm not remotely the operator he is either, so... But anyway that's a fine tuba.

[Jess Haney]

Pikes Peak uses Eb and Bb basses. We have Willson Eb and Bb basses with one Bb Besson compensated. Great dark sound

[anotherjtm2]

… (I still think the CC on the Eb part is weird. Why have a bass and contrabass part distinctly, but play the wrong tuba?)

When I joined a brass band I had Bb and C tubas (all rotary). The band needed players on the Eb part, so I played that with a smallish C tuba for most of a year. Now I play that part on a rotary F, which is still wrong but sounds pretty good.