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Since I am struggeling with a very old Besson monster-size 19" bell Eb tuba with interesting intonation (I had to shorten it 4 cm to get it up to 442 Hz) and unprecise slotting, I am on the outlook for a new instrument.

Yesterday I was to the dress-rehersal of the danish BB competitions, and met two other BB's. One of the other tuba players was playing a B&S F tuba model 3099W with 5 rotary valves. The sound was refreshingly fresh compared to mine ...

So the question goes: how usual/unusual is it to see a smaller tuba than 19" bell in a bristish-style BB?

Are there reasons not to play an F tuba in a BB (except for fingering, but that can be learned) ?

Or should I better look for a 16 to 17" bell Eb tuba?

What are your experiences in this respect?

Not that unusual, I know a few guys here in the UK that use bell smaller than 19".

Don't worry about the pitch or size, it's about the blend! I've seen people go as OCD as to play exactly the "same" instruments (brand, model, year of manufacture etc.) but the reality is you will never get 2 instruments the same, so don't worry about that. You can have 4 of the biggest tubas in the world but if they're not in tune and the sound doesn't blend it will never be as loud as a good, blended section. Unfortunately the only way you'll know if it works is through trial and error, and hoping that your section in the brass band never changes once you have the blend!

Also just ensure if the band does competitions that there is nothing in the rules about what pitch of instrument you can use or whether is has to be piston valves.

Yes, you are right, it's the music which comes out of the bell that counts.

Being a bass trombonist doubling on Eb tuba (and did so only for 3 month) I feel the 19" Besson is hard to play rythmically precise, and I do not reach the clearer, brighter sound I have in mind. It also annoys me that I have to lip so much up and down to get it in tune. But both things are probably a trombone players beginner issues?

Ideally, I would like to find a smaller instrument, Eb or F, compensated 4v or rotary 5/6 valve. Important to me is that the internal tuning of the instrument is fine, that it get's up to 442Hz, and that it is responsive.

The Danish BB competitions say nothing about size or key of instruments to be used, so there is no problem in changing that in future.

Only thing I need to do is finding the right tuba for my money - need to save up first, though.

Several year back, the brass band I play with was short one of our Eb players and brought in a substitute. He played an F tuba and performed flawlessly. Great player!

I cannot imagine myself doing the treble clef transposition 'on the fly'. It's tough enough for BBb and Eb tubas.

TubaTinker wrote:I cannot imagine myself doing the treble clef transposition 'on the fly'. It's tough enough for BBb and Eb tubas.

Actually, one get's easily used to the transpositioning keys or different concert pitch keys, if one just plays easy melodies written in them for a couple of weeks.

Being mostly a trombonist, I have to play bass clef in symfony or concert band, Bb treble clef in brass band, tenor and alto clef in various classical settings, and C treble clef when playing church tenor parts. After a while in a new clef/key combination, it just happens without thinking.

Playing Eb treble clef scores on a F tuba is just like playing bass clef on the F-side of the bass trombone - plus/minus 3 flats/sharps.

Usually, it works out just nice after two weeks of practice.

Don't try it. You'll get arrested.

My band is not a 'competition' band so I have no idea what the rules are governing the key of tubas. I use F's & CC's; they sound fine ....

The Chicago area bands have just about anything in their sections; I have only ever been a guest at rehearsal, but nobody said a thing about what I brought (including the wrong key horn).

tclements wrote:My band is not a 'competition' band so I have no idea what the rules are governing the key of tubas. I use F's & CC's; they sound fine ....

There don't seem to be any rules regarding the key of tubas in brass band. ... only snotty traditions.

I've been conducting the Great Western Rocky Mountain Brass Band in Colorado now for 35 years. Currently we have a stellar tuba section with an F, Eb CC, and several BBbs. They listen, have good ears and play in tune. The harmonic complexity is beautiful, somewhat more ambient that the classic British competition bands such as Black Dyke and company. At times we also use cimbasso on certain works, particularly Italian overtures, but also in other situations where a contrabass trombone sound is just the right thing. We also use (French) F horns which I can imagine ruffle the feathers of some purists. But when you have great professional horn players from symphony and service band background, it is hard to justify that they put that sound away in deference to a alto horn sound. So as a Yankee I subscribe to a different paradigm, and so be it. It is not the same, but it can be just as beautiful and musical, perhaps moreso.
Granted if we all started as kids with Bb cornet fingerings the Eb/Bb routine would be a piece of cake. But on this side of the Atlantic we did not, so there we be.

BTW, I write every chart for the Great Western Band, and have racked up over 600 to date. I make sure that every part is idiomatic for the sections in the band and hear in my head a rather orchestra sound. At times the band does sound like a large symphony orchestra and the harmonic complexity does help in that regard.

So all you tuba players on Fs and CCs. Keep at it.

Under NABBA rules (unless they've changed while I wasn't looking), any key tuba can play any part. Under British rules, you must use the key instrument the part's written for. They're diametric opposites.

Who cares so long as they sound good?

I have played a Besson compensating BBb for several years in brassband.
I did not like the ergonomics (the lack of them in fact) and the way it adds resistance in the low register.
It was very big and heavy to carry around, and not nice to play, so I did not feel like playing a tuba like that in my spare time anymore.
Now I play a Miraphone Norwegian Star 5V Eb, with a rather big mouthpiece WH-B1, and brassband has become fun again!
It's lighter, more ergonomic and easier to play in tune than the Bessons.
It also feels much more open in the pedal register.
People look strange at the rotors at first, but are positively surprised after having tried the lightness and short stroke of them.

just my thoughts...

No. Play the right thing. At least don't go out of your way to play the wrong thing. Plenty of hotrod tubas are more enjoyable to the player and to listen to solo, what works for a band is more complicated. The BBb version really is a tough blow but worth it for the sound, Eb gets far fewer complaints.

19" bell means its a Sovereign and can't possibly be very old. Initial Sovereigns and/or transitional instruments could have flatness issues, maybe it's been fixed. It could be a stinker, in which case you can always put it on Ebay and try another Sovereign. Maybe a New Standard would suit you better, it has a wide-open 15" bell instead of a flared out 19" bell.

Now it would be a lot of fun to Americanize the BBB with long model cornets, mellophones, and American baritones. Kitchen-sink tubas would be fine for that, until then I'd be careful about negating the British-ness efforts of other players by playing the wrong instrument.

There are two Sovereign models, the 3+1 980, and the front-action 983, that both have the smaller 17 inch bell.

Playing any key tuba on a Eb Bass part is easy as long as you adjust the key signature to match non transposed bass clef. I used to do the opposite on a Contra-Alto Clarinet in HS. Now playing a Bb Bass part on anything other than a BBb horn is a nightmare considering the level of playing most British Brass repertoire is very high. It's much easier to switch to transposed treble clef on the correctly pitched horn than fight with sight transposing shredding passages on the incorrect key of horn. Some people can do it, but I'm not a masochist.

To play a B-flat treble clef bass part on CC tuba, you make like you're reading bass clef, add two sharps, and use F tuba fingerings. There are some adjustments for accidentals.

GC wrote:Under NABBA rules (unless they've changed while I wasn't looking), any key tuba can play any part. Under British rules, you must use the key instrument the part's written for. They're diametric opposites.

Who cares so long as they sound good?

Not true, you can use any key in most UK competitions, rotary or piston.

@Andy There was some discussion on this a couple of years ago. Is this recent, or has it been this way for a while? Last time I looked up British rules online, they seemed pretty definite. Is it a matter of different sponsoring groups having different rules, or am I totally missing the point?

GC wrote:@Andy There was some discussion on this a couple of years ago. Is this recent, or has it been this way for a while? Last time I looked up British rules online, they seemed pretty definite. Is it a matter of different sponsoring groups having different rules, or am I totally missing the point?

Different contests have different rules, but people have used all sorts and never been pulled!

Thanks.