TubeNet

I am not an anti Chinese tuba person, I own and play two BMB tubas. But I am increasing annoyed by the lack of transparency by importers of Chinese tubas. There are six importers I can think of off the top of my head. They are BMB, Wessex, Mack, John Packer, Schiller and O'Malley.

For illustration, 4 of these importers sell a PT-10/15 clone. John Packer claims to be the best clone, announcing its supremacy with a lofty price tag.

I understand that there is a spectrum of customer service ranging from Schiller, who will sell anything that is shaped like a tuba and tell you to get lost, with no warranty. To Wessex that offers a 3 year warranty and by most reports has excellent customer service.

So here is the challenge: Somebody, anybody, anywhere...List the City and name of the factories that these PT-10/15 clones are manufactured in. Please.

Wessex:
Mack:
John Packer:
O'Malley:

And why do none of these importers just list the City in China in which these Tubas are manufactured, like say, B&S does for Markneukirchen/Klingenthal? Are they just afraid that westerners don't want to see or have to try and pronounce a Chinese city name? Honestly I can't pronounce Markneukirchen either.

Secondary Challenge: Where exactly does BMB have tubas built? City and factory.

I don't know why this all has to be such a mystery.

In China.

The Big Ben wrote:In China.

Exactly.

Two guesses:

(1) No one ever cared before now, so no one has asked. And if the cities were named from the beginning, 99% of their customers would be none the wiser.

(2) Jonathan Hodgetts and Tom McGrady will pop up shortly to answer your questions. Others may be hiding something, but if either of them were to have a "lack of transparency" about this sort of thing, it would be the first time.

Why would this be some big conspiratorial secret demanding "transparency" anyway? Is there some city in China that would be somehow more or less acceptable than others? Why does it matter? Without google how many owners of tubas made there could put a pin within a hundred miles of Markneukirchen?

EDIT: On the other hand, of course what we do know because they tell us on every instrument and case, is that Jim Laabs's "Schiller" instruments are made in "Frankfurt, Germany." That's a city in China, by the way.

I'm still waiting for my tuba to be built that I paid for 5 years ago...

I haven't had any problem with Wessex or Mack about hiding anything. They are both clear that they sell horns made in China by Jinbao at the Tianjin factory. This information is easily accessible by doing a search for Jinbao and looking at the company website.

It matters when one importer claims that their tuba is superior when in fact there is just a different stamp slapped on it at the end of the assembly line. I also find it misleading when importers use terms like "our factory" or "our design" or "exclusive" to describe their products when in fact these things don't exist. I know differences in quality control exist in the form of post production inspection. But outside of that, why is a John Packer F tuba $2000 better than a Wessex?

kmorgancraw wrote:why is a John Packer F tuba $2000 better than a Wessex?

Well, that is a legitimate question, best answered in my opinion through personal experience with those tubas. I don't get how the city of manufacture speaks to this. (The BMW X6 is made in Greenville, SC. The Toyota Camry is made in Georgetown, KY. How does knowing this help me decide which, if either, to buy?)

But again, if you really care, ask the companies in question. I am sure Wessex and Mack Brass will tell you. The others I don't know.

Wessex Tubas have used three factories in China since we started business, Hushen, Jinyin and Jinbao. Most people have heard of Jinbao, but do not realise there are lots of brass factories in China - I have heard as many as 70 mentioned. Some of those factories sell under their own brand name, such as Wisemann of Beijing, but most keep a lower profile manufacturing for multiple brands and stencilling them accordingly. This includes for some top named brands. In some cases they make the individual components which are then assembled in west.

Wessex for the last 18 months has used exclusively Jinbao with which we have built a very close relationship. I am now good friends with the brass production manager who honestly is a technical genius. Jinbao are in a small town called Baodi about 2 hours drive from Beijing and I can say with certainty also manufacture some (but necessary all) for Schiller, M&M, and Mack Brass as I have seen their instruments under construction during my quarterly visits to the factory. However, just because they are all made in the same factory does not mean they are the same. Jinbao will manufacture to varying quality standards according to particular dealer specifications, specific requirements and most important price point. In other words the quality will vary according to what the dealer will pay.

Jinbao has their own extensive standard range which they will sell to anyone and they also manufacture horns exclusive for specific companies. An increasing part of Wessex range are now made exclusive for Wessex, made to our specific designs. I am moving Wessex away from selling Jinbao standard catalogue and those which we continue, like the Mahler CC tuba (186 clone) because it is so good, I am insisting on enhancements which we ensure through quality checking and playing of every single horn before accepting and paying.

There are over 150 cities in China that have a population of over 1 million. I can name... uh, 3? Just saying "China" doesn't cut it.

My tuba was mad win Switzerland, but that's not good enough for me either. It was made in Flums, Switzerland.

That's like the garage statements like "Designed by Apple in California, Made in China." Just get to the point, its made in China.

There's also nonsense like Made in PRC, Made in Taiwan, Made in Hong Kong, and one other set of initials I can't remember right now. All means Made in China.

Sidebar -- what is the reason for "Made in EC" (European Community). I've seen that on stuff made in Lithuania.

bloke wrote:
...and yes, companies like Eastman/Yamaha/Buffet/Conn-Selmer/Packer (probably Gemeinhardt flutes) have their own shops in China.

Don't be so certain my friend - even the biggest companies sub-contract

Jonathan "who knows what he has seen"

FWIW.

I had a personal guided tour of the Bach facility in Elkhart Friday morning. Their attention to detail and craftsmanship in producing the 'Strad' and 'Artisan' lines is second to none. There are many reasons why the Bach products are more expensive.

...and that's awesome!

Too bad they don't make tubas!

bloke wrote:I know enough to know that...

- everything is not made by Jinbao.

- the Jinbao B&S F tuba is represented as being a PT-10 copy, and the Packer F tuba is absolutely (no question) a PT-15 copy.

Packer are definitely NOT made at Jinbao, agreed!

1) Jonathan, are you implying that Wessex tubas are built in the same factory as other well known brands?

2) No clue what the Brook Mays reference is...

Curmudgeon, I am not "casing aspersions" at anyone or any company. To clarify, I was just agreeing with Bloke that they are different horns. I wish you would not try to read hidden messages that were never intended.

My posts to this thread were just trying to demystify the Chinese brass industry to clear up misconceptions. Not all Chinese made brass are the same and not all are made by Jinbao. I will say no more...

TubaTinker wrote:FWIW.

I had a personal guided tour of the Bach facility in Elkhart Friday morning. Their attention to detail and craftsmanship in producing the 'Strad' and 'Artisan' lines is second to none. There are many reasons why the Bach products are more expensive.

Dan-
Those Artisan trumpets really are terrific. It had to have been a great tour!!!
Mark

bloke wrote:I wish Bach would go back to the two-piece valve casings on the trumpets.

I understand that
- even with copper strike, silver plating doesn't adhere to nickel-silver as well, and
- the majority of people are still ordering their trumpets with silver plating

but the two-piece casings were VERY cool...and more durable.

They are still using nickel-silver for outside slide tubing on the LACQUERED trumpets (brass on the silver plated ones), which is why I think its better to order the LACQUERED version of any of their models.

Today is your lucky day. Bach is offering two-piece valve casings on several new trumpets. They use the 190 model number to mean "trumpet with two-piece valve casings", beginning with the Artisan trumpets (AB190, AC190). Then came the Mariachi model (LR19043), the Commercial model (LT190), and now the new 19037. The traditional Bach 37 trumpet is the model 180 (one-piece valve casings), but the new 19037 has the two-piece casings and all nickel outside slides and ferrules...even on the silver plate version. The 190 costs just a little more than the 18037, and is currently badged as the Anniversary model, celebrating 50 years of Bach production in Elkhart. If this is a popular seller, they may continue to roll out the 190 features throughout the Stradivarus trumpet line.

I think competition at both ends of the spectrum contributed to Conn-Selmer offering these new Bach trumpets. If Schilke/Edwards/Shires/Yamaha are setting the bar for a high-end trumpet, and the used market is flooded with 50 years of Bach 37 trumpet production, then they need to step up the quality and style to compete. Now that some of the Chinese options are getting good enough for school and rental fleet use (and more), they're finding that market more difficult too, and it's time to innovate.

I think this innovation comes in the form of catering to the individual buyer rather than just to institutions. The King trombone line just got a makeover too. New King trombones have that old-school 3-piece engraved balance weight, nice engraving on the bell, a sleek faux-fiberglass case that's better on the subway, and they actually call them the 2B, 3B, etc. This is smart, as a new King is something you'd be proud to own, rather than feeling like you've settled for a second place trombone next to a Shires.

Tuba related content: Conn-Selmer may offer an imported compensating euphonium.

F

bloke wrote:I wish Bach would go back to the two-piece valve casings on the trumpets....

Joe... the production I witnessed Friday morning were two-piece valve casings... some had nickle-silver tops and bottoms. I don't think they were destined for anything special beyond the new Artisan series Bach trumpets.

The factory I saw was VERY clean and set up in work cells A La 'lean manufacturing'. There were A LOT of smiling faces! I think Conn-Selmer has their 'stuff' together with what appears to be happy employees, a good parts program, and fresh marketing strategies.

I was frankly surprised that I didn't see ANY imported parts. Even small items like brace flanges were still being stamped from sheet stock and brazed into assemblies.

I don't know what these factories looked like fifty years ago but it's fairly obvious to me that some really good things are taking place in American manufacturing these days. They even have programs in place to recycle their materials to assure that the same alloys are brought back into the system as raw material.

Their new trombone valve that resembles a Thayer on the outside is radically different on the inside... with replaceable bearing surfaces.

Things are lookin' good in Elkhart!