Sign of fatigue?

[Cthuba]

Hello tubeneteers,

I have been doing my usual tuba routine for about a month and recently I have just added a loud studies portion. The next day of practice I have found it much more difficult to play pedal notes such as C below the staff when I can usually play a pedal G securely. My other ranges are secure, but my lower range is weaker than usual.

I'm curious if anyone else has ever experienced this. I have a concert coming up and wondered how I should practice or if I should even play other than rehearsals. Is it safe to play only pedal tones?

[AndyCat]

^^^ (thinking how curmudgeonly I must be to agree with bloke so much)

(I'm currently playing twice, 3 times a week max a week, 1 or 2 2hr reh and 1 or 2 gigs somewhere. Everything works nicely!)

I'm no pro though.

[swillafew]

Sounds to me like you found your limitations. A little less of the new thing is your easiest thing to try first.

[eupher61]

maybe your concept of "how to play loud" doesn't work for you. I agree, back off a bit, do the loud stuff in smaller doses, and see what happens. If it continues, you need loud help.

[tubasaz]

Can you take a five days break ?

After that slooowlly sofftly back.....
( I know it feels almost impossibly too long a break..).
And: If that situation continuous then a prof help is needed.

(and before concerts I practically play nothing in 2 or 3 days...)
(P.S. bloke seems to be a really great guy)

[hup_d_dup]

Some people might not agree with me but I think you should back off a little bit for a few days.

Just my opinion.

Hup

[Donn]

Not one to shy away from controversy, I'm going to defiantly suggest that perhaps backing off would be worth a try. Slacking off, even.

[happyroman]

Arnold Jacobs, who reportedly could play quite loud, had a few things to say for those working on their loud playing.

First, one must remember that the tuba id a high volume and low pressure instrument, with respect to air flow. When we play loud, we must blow faster, but not harder. He would often use the analogy of moving the bow quickly across the strings, but not pressing the bow hard against the strings.

Second, loud playing must be approached musically. You must conceive in your mind what you want to sound like while simultaneously hearing that sound in your head. Sing in the head while you play.

He also recommended finding the middle of your dynamic range and focusing on developing a great sound at that level, and then gradually transferring that quality to the extremes, both loud and soft.

Here are a couple of his quotes on loud playing.

"By playing musically, your embouchure is learning to cooperate. In other words, the big increase in effort is for a big sound. Some players simply blow as a big physical effort, but they don’t get the big sound. Instead, they get big resistance and airy tones. They play with a great deal of physical efforts and their tones get rough and hard. That’s not right."

"There are players who have a horrible sound by the time they reach 108 dB. They have a very small embouchure—like a small reed—and when trying to play loud, they force it. They show signs of physical stress, but on the decibel meter they are not getting any louder. There is just more resistance and more push, but not more sound."

"If you have a larger quality of sound, you’ll also have a larger volume of sound. The tendency of putting larger physical effort for producing a larger sound is like lying to your own body. The other approach has more to do with the methodology of how to produce that sound … Weakness is your friend, strength is your enemy."

"Take a mid-range note and give it a great tone and a beautiful singing line. Maybe play it with vibrato. Then you can approach fairly large dynamics with beauty of tone."

"When I play loud, I think of a big voice, not big effort."

My guess is that you are working too hard and forcing things in order to get louder. Instead, work on seeing how little effort you can use when you play loud.

[Cthuba]

Thanks everyone for all of your input.

[imperialbari]

Wouldn't faster air raise the pitch?

The OP caused his lips to swell, hence the stiffness that limits his low range.

Klaus

[tbn.al]

I remember posing a similar question to my college professor, a student of Jacobs, in 1965. He replied, "Let me re-phrase that. Think faster air, son. It's not the science that matters. The only thing that matters is what you think is happening and what comes out of your bell." It works, by the way. It worked then and it still works for me today, as well as countless students along the way. The science becomes inconsequential when you get the desired results.

[PaulMaybery]

I did think at first, that the simple remedy of just taking some time off will help things come back. For that matter I still do. Recovery takes time and rest. So I suppose I do concur with the previous posts, which are rather thoughtful and helpful.

One issue that I believe is a factor is the age of the player. Not so much the youngness of a particular player, but the oldness. I'm in this category now, almost 69, and fatigue comes much quicker and recovery takes longer. When this all started to become more obvious and rear its ugly head about 9 years ago, I got rather psychosomatic and obsessed on it being something horrible such as focal dystonia, nerve damage, a torn muscle, even Bell's Palsey or Parkinson's. Geesh!!!

Now in hindsight I can see what was happening. At that time I had recently retired and had tons of discretionary time to practice. I was ordering all sorts of etude books, solo literature and excerpt collections. I bought 5 new instruments, and, a plethora of mouthpieces to experiment with. All of this was an attempt to pull myself back up to a level that I felt would be seriously competitive. Serious practice and remedial work is something that is hard to work into one's daily routine when so much time is spent on the job or commuting. Now, I thought I was in tuba heaven.

However, I was older and my body mass (muscle tissue) was diminishing, arthritis and other coronary issues were slowing me down. Even the motor skills and reaction time were more sluggish. But I felt that my musical skills were much more acute and accurate. While part of me was improving, the other part was deteriorating. And I was set on practicing 5 to 8 hours daily, hoping to make up for lost time and that I would just get strong. Yes, many aspects of my performance did improve greatly. However, stamina was not one of them. Past a certain point I had to realize that I would hit the wall much sooner. Even nutrition and exercise has its limitations.

Regarding the fear of focal dystonia, a friend and colleague suggested more time off of the horn, listening to music, score study, solfege practice and time out of the house and in the open air. (His remedy was the golf course.) This translated to me as simply other interests that engage a different part of the mind and body. Well, my fears were in vain, I did not have any of the above maladies and today realize that when I do hit the wall, it only gets better when I take time off. There are no "on the horn" remedies that seem to work.

If I feel that I need to stay focused on music that I will perform in the very near future, then singing the parts, accurately in solfeggio, doing drills with just the valves, or even breathing exercises keep things from going back to square one. But the chops get that needed respite.

When I used to play a lot of ice shows, circuses and rodeos, sometimes 3 shows a day, we got what we called "circus chops" Not having a chance to really rest them, the lip muscles got stiff and swollen. We could play the charts in the book, but that was it. Trying to force ourselves to play sensitively on other music seemed Impossible.

Well there you have another "geezer" story which I hope is encouraging.
One caveat though is to realize that if one is not playing smart, then there is likely an efficiency factor that may be wearing things out a little quicker. I did study with Mr. Jacobs way back when and heartily concur with Happyroman and the concept of the movement of air to support the sound. It should not take that much effort to really "rattle the roof." Just air, happily discharged from a willing physique.

[Bill Troiano]

I did think at first, that the simple remedy of just taking some time off will help things come back. For that matter I still do. Recovery takes time and rest. So I suppose I do concur with the previous posts, which are rather thoughtful and helpful.

One issue that I believe is a factor is the age of the player. Not so much the youngness of a particular player, but the oldness. I'm in this category now, almost 69, and fatigue comes much quicker and recovery takes longer. When this all started to become more obvious and rear its ugly head about 9 years ago, I got rather psychosomatic and obsessed on it being something horrible such as focal dystonia, nerve damage, a torn muscle, even Bell's Palsey or Parkinson's. Geesh!!!

Now in hindsight I can see what was happening. At that time I had recently retired and had tons of discretionary time to practice. I was ordering all sorts of etude books, solo literature and excerpt collections. I bought 5 new instruments, and, a plethora of mouthpieces to experiment with. All of this was an attempt to pull myself back up to a level that I felt would be seriously competitive. Serious practice and remedial work is something that is hard to work into one's daily routine when so much time is spent on the job or commuting. Now, I thought I was in tuba heaven.

However, I was older and my body mass (muscle tissue) was diminishing, arthritis and other coronary issues were slowing me down. Even the motor skills and reaction time were more sluggish. But I felt that my musical skills were much more acute and accurate. While part of me was improving, the other part was deteriorating. And I was set on practicing 5 to 8 hours daily, hoping to make up for lost time and that I would just get strong. Yes, many aspects of my performance did improve greatly. However, stamina was not one of them. Past a certain point I had to realize that I would hit the wall much sooner. Even nutrition and exercise has its limitations.

Regarding the fear of focal dystonia, a friend and colleague suggested more time off of the horn, listening to music, score study, solfege practice and time out of the house and in the open air. (His remedy was the golf course.) This translated to me as simply other interests that engage a different part of the mind and body. Well, my fears were in vain, I did not have any of the above maladies and today realize that when I do hit the wall, it only gets better when I take time off. There are no "on the horn" remedies that seem to work.

If I feel that I need to stay focused on music that I will perform in the very near future, then singing the parts, accurately in solfeggio, doing drills with just the valves, or even breathing exercises keep things from going back to square one. But the chops get that needed respite.

When I used to play a lot of ice shows, circuses and rodeos, sometimes 3 shows a day, we got what we called "circus chops" Not having a chance to really rest them, the lip muscles got stiff and swollen. We could play the charts in the book, but that was it. Trying to force ourselves to play sensitively on other music seemed Impossible.

Well there you have another "geezer" story which I hope is encouraging.
One caveat though is to realize that if one is not playing smart, then there is likely an efficiency factor that may be wearing things out a little quicker. I did study with Mr. Jacobs way back when and heartily concur with Happyroman and the concept of the movement of air to support the sound. It should not take that much effort to really "rattle the roof." Just air, happily discharged from a willing physique.

Very well put, Paul, and very similar to my experiences, except for the the circus band part. My experience was playing with Guy Lombardo, 7 days a week and sometimes doing 2, 3-4 hr. gigs a day. Man, I could play his book without even using many of the charts, but I had iron chops, and that was all I was able to play well.

[happyroman]

Wouldn't faster air raise the pitch?

The OP caused his lips to swell, hence the stiffness that limits his low range.

Klaus

I suppose the faster air could raise the pitch, if you did nothing but blow the air faster.

Mr. Jacobs used the phrase Song and Wind, in that order, for a reason. The Song element is primary, meaning that one must develop vocal chord activity in the lips by singing the pitch in the brain simultaneously as you play it. If you are buzzing the pitch in tune and on center, then blowing faster will increase the amplitude of vibration, but not the frequency of vibration. The Wind is only the fuel source for the vibration.

[gwwilk]

Wouldn't faster air raise the pitch?

The OP caused his lips to swell, hence the stiffness that limits his low range.

Klaus

I suppose the faster air could raise the pitch, if you did nothing but blow the air faster.

Mr. Jacobs used the phrase Song and Wind, in that order, for a reason. The Song element is primary, meaning that one must develop vocal chord activity in the lips by singing the pitch in the brain simultaneously as you play it. If you are buzzing the pitch in tune and on center, then blowing faster will increase the amplitude of vibration, but not the frequency of vibration. The Wind is only the fuel source for the vibration.

In my admittedly limited experience, unless I increase the size of my oral cavity while playing louder, the faster air will indeed raise the pitch. For example, in order to maintain the pitch in 'Sound', exercise #2 in Michael Davis' "20 minute Warm-Up Routine" I must increase my oral cavity's size during the crescendos and decrease it during the decrescendos. These volume changes are accomplished by jaw movements while maintaining a stable embouchure. For whatever reason, I can play louder and in tune when I use this technique. I think it has to with allowing the 'faster air' to flow more freely, but this is certainly a controversial issue in brass pedagogy. I realize that anecdotal evidence proves nothing, so make of it what you will.

[imperialbari]

It has to do with letting a larger volume of air pass at the same speed. I even think that the embouchure opens up proportionally at higher volumes.

Klaus

Edited for spelling.

[roweenie]

It has to do with letting a larger volume of anir pass at the same speed...

Klaus

In order for that to happen, doesn't the opening size of the anir need to be increased?

[happyroman]

All of these things, such as opening the oral cavity and the opening at the lips are best controlled with the part of the brain that Mr. Jacobs called the control panel. The focus is on the product, not the mechanism. Control the product and you cointrol what gives you the product. All of the other stuff comes under the heading of things you allow to happen while focusing on maintaining a constant, centered pitch, with a great sound, regardless of dynamic.

Of course, if you know that faster air may have a tendency to raise the pitch, being forewarned is forearmed.

[southtubist]

1. Play less. I spent several years practicing 3-6 hours a day and then going to around 4 hours of ensemble rehearsals. I made sure to take at least one day out of the week (usually Sunday) and not touch my tuba at all. In fact, I wouldn't even listen to music. During the "off" season (summers, Christmas, spring break, etc.) I would only play 1-2 hours a day with frequent off days. This more or less prevented injuries and allowed me to improve rapidly.

2. Become more efficient. Learn to play fatigued by relaxing and using your air efficiently. I have only recently grasped relaxation, mostly because I don't really play anymore. My standards are still the same, but I don't have leather lips. . . Perhaps you should (gasp ) move to smaller equipment? I also liked to stick my F tuba session at the end of the day so that I could practice the most physically demanding music when fatigued. This forced me to relax more.

3. Don't play loud/high a lot. 99% of the time you don't need to play loud, even when it's marked FFF on the part. It's just not necessary, especially when you can play really soft for contrast. Trust yourself in the high range- you shouldn't have to "test" it every time you use it. Just play the music and don't psych yourself out and waste energy.

4. Work on static strength. Unlike most people, the "pencil drill" really helped me. I have a really static embouchure, that is, my corners don't really move. It might not work for you, but it could be worth trying. It took me a long time to get results.

[tubanonymous]

Sometimes destroying the instrument with air is necessary to get the right tone. When I play reggae music, brass band (dub and NOLA style, not english), rock bands, etc, its not even about playing "loud"--you're miced, you could play your ppp and the engineer would just turn it up loud enough. But the tuba has a different sound image when its loud, there are more harmonics present in the sound and they interact differently. Sometimes to really cut through the mix, and take ownership of the pitch range that the tuba operates in, you need very harmonic rich sound. So I will say this just in some sort of defense of loud playing.

In terms of your problem specifically, its hard to say whether you need to play this style more or less. I would be inclined to say you need to do it more, since you describe it as a new technique. You are probably just getting used to it. But other users are right, there is potential to hurt yourself.

I have this problem every now and again, but personally it only happens if Ive been taking days off the horn. When Im being a good little tuba player and playing a couple hours every single day, it doesnt really come up. When all else fails, if my face is feeling floppy, I just do 10-15 minutes of split tones and Im usually good to go