F/G euphonium and baritone

[AHynds]

I've been reading up on the history and development of the tuba family, and it has lead me to consider the possibility of different kinds of instruments outside of the relatively standardized set of tubas and the euphonium. In my (admittedly slim) knowledge of instrument manufacturing, it seems to me that there could be some advantages for a 3+1 compensating euphonium (or tuba, rather) pitched in F or G. This would be the same or a step higher than modern F tubas, and there have already been attempts at a modern compensating F tuba (the rather nebulous Besson F). A 3+1 compensating tuba in G would be just about the perfect thing for the French conservatory repertoire, as well as a number of other works written for some of the tuba's smaller predecessors (Mendelssohn's ophicleide parts come to mind).

At the same time, have there been any attempts to build what could potentially be considered a baritone in F or G (baritone in that it has a cylindrical style bore and long, slowly tapered bell)? I feel like that type of instrument would have a unique sound, and would be great for Italian opera repertoire (being, in many ways, am upright cimbasso).

So, am I completely off base on all of this? I've increasingly become more interested in devising instruments that are outside of the mainstream collection of tubas and euphoniums, and both of the horns mentioned above could have viable use cases. Any thoughts on this would be welcome!

[PaulMaybery]

Hi Aaron.
This has intrigued me for some time as well. When you consider the range of ophicleide parts for instance (Berlioz), they climb to G above middle C in routine orchestration. Its really a risky situation for an F tuba, but pretty realistic for a euph. Those parts should not be such a strain and take heroic chops to pull off. The low end is often a bit light on a euph but with a large mp can produce some serious weight. I have in my garage shop at the moment parts to create a narrow bore F instrument not really much larger than a euph and set up to take a bass trombone/large euph mp. I'm figuring a overall bore somewhere around .600 more or less. Depends where in the bugle the valve set goes.
Aesthetically I would like it to resemble a valved ophicleide or bombardon as they were often called. The euph just looks like a band instrument in the orchestra. Thats OK on say Holst's "Planets" but on Mendelssohn and Berlioz, part of the charm is the appearance of this archaic looking instrument. And if I may get carried away a bit with that "certain charm," a dragon head for a bell would be a hoot. Perhaps that could be detachable.
I've noticed Wessex has posted some pics of a bombardon (valved ophicleide) they are working on. I believe this is a good move in that direction, but only some field testing will determine if it is a viable instrument in the modern orchestra.
I could also see the bombardon in Bb (euph pitch) just stretched out in that vertical ophicleide form. Perhaps with additional compensation to get a solid low B nat. (5th valve or a slide trigger.) Such an instrument should allow the parts to be played with a certain confidence so that the high Gs are in a comfortable range on the instrument.
Just my private thoughts from a guy that loves eccentric instruments.

[roweenie]

This picture shows Roger Bobo playing what I believe to be a "G" tuba.

[Ace]

I think your idea of an instrument in G may be a good one, Aaron. You'd have to have well-developed transposition skills, but that is a basic requirement with a lot of orchestral brass players. Twenty years ago, I was busy in several community orchestras and a Bach Cantata group. The Schilke four-valve G trumpet I had came in handy for a broad range of pieces, including Stravinsky's Pulcinella Suite and the various baroque cantatas that featured trumpets and tympani. I can hold my own on bass trombone, euphonium, and tuba, but am not by any means a specialist in low brass; thus, uses for a low brass instrument in G do not immediately come to my mind. Perhaps others who specialize in low brass will offer some ideas.

Ace

[jacobg]

The 1890s Conn Eb tubas are really fantastic instruments:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12857" target="_blank

Only slightly bigger than a euphonium.I have the 4 valve version. As far as I know there is nothing like it being made today.

[jacobg]

Just used my 1890s 4 valve Conn Eb for a recording session for a network TV show. Range was from Bb at the top of the staff to A below the staff.
The horn weighs about 13 lbs.

[Bob Kolada]

I think Tony Clements has a 6 valve G made out of a Kantsul marching euph.

[hduong]

Here's a photo of Tony's G tuba that was made from 2 Kanstul marching G euphoniums.

g-tuba-1-164x300.jpg

[Biggs]

As far as the voicing of the pre-tuba-era works, not all are "high"...and all of those works were written within the range of the tuba...and
In contrast, Mendelssohn Reformation Symphony's "serpent or contrabassoon" part (if played in the correct octave for contrabassoon) is L-O-W.

Mendelssohn Reformation serpent (tuba) or contrabassoon.png

I am 99% certain that part is for serpente e controfagotto - serpent and contrabassoon. Not a comment on how modern players should interpret, but if we're going by the intent of Mendelssohn (or his publisher), the part is to be played on two instruments in parallel octaves (serpent in the written octave).

[aqualung]

Here's a photo of Tony's G tuba that was made from 2 Kanstul marching G euphoniums.

Be aware that ALL marching G instruments were and are made from available major components of conventional brass instruments. So this bell and branches were designed for Zig's Bb euphoniums.
I am quite familiar with the 195G euph bugle. It has quirks that can't be easily rectified with the TAN slide. I can't imagine that it fares well with a front end of assorted tuba parts.
But you never know for sure until you put something together and blow it. There are too many variables that interact in unpredictable manners.