TubeNet

Hello all, I'm a junior in high school playing on a BBb tuba, and I'm having difficulty with the higher parts of Symphonie Fantastique (Ophikleide 1) and the Edward Gregson. I just can't seem to hit notes in the C-F range consistently. I notice that if I imagine I'm playing a very low note, and use lots of air rather than force I tend to hit the notes better, but it's still pretty inconsistent. Also, my pitch tends to slide around a lot up there. Do you guys have any tips on addressing working in this register? Thank you!

So how many people play this stuff on a BBb tuba -- and why?

So how many people play this stuff on a BBb tuba -- and why?

I'm assuming practically no one. But I'm a high school student, so dropping thousands of dollars on an F horn isn't really an option. I'm in a local college-levelish youth symphony which is the reason we're doing the Symphonie Fantastique.

chao50 wrote:

So how many people play this stuff on a BBb tuba -- and why?

I'm in a local college-levelish youth symphony which is the reason we're doing the Symphonie Fantastique.

Berlioz wrote Fantastiqe for instruments an octave higher than your BBb. If you need to be true to the score, work it up on a euphonium or baritone. No reason to wreck your embrochure by trying to hit those notes with poorly developed or incorrectly developed chops. That will do both you and the part a disservice.

One does not get reasonable embrochure advice remotely over the Internet. You need a teacher that can both hear you and see you and give you good advice. For example, I think it has nothing to do with corners and everything to do with airstream focus. Where does that leave you?

I think euphonium might be a better bet for the piece, but to answer the question do what it takes to have those pitches sound natural to you. Playing them on a piano (then matching it on the tuba next to you) is a pretty solid method. High notes are all about knowing the pitch and confidence.

Bob Kolada wrote: High notes are all about knowing the pitch and confidence.

Yeah, but as I'm pretty sure you've pointed out somewhere previously, just producing the pitch isn't the goal. It's having it sound good at that pitch.

Do the audience a favor and borrow a euphonium to play it. Or let the horn play it .

If you must (?) do it on the BBb, think about going to a smaller mouthpiece in order to get more control in that range. While I generally use a Wick 3XL for overall band work, I've been playing the Tuba Christmas Tuba 1 parts a lot lately and find that with my TU-17 they sound a LOT better in addition to being a bit easier to play.

If you are in HS, maybe your school has a horn to practice with to see if it is better. Bring your music to school and give it a blow. If you don't already play with a mouthpiece that size, it may take some hours to get it right but you should be able to tell if it will work right off.

Ah Yes. The age old question. What instrument to play for ophicleide parts.
Some transfer just fine to tuba. Others tend to be quite high and really do not function in the bass capacity, but more in unison with the trombones or if not in unison at least in the tenor/baritone range as in "Symphony Fantastique"

At that famous spot in the "Dies irai" the two ophicleides join with the bassoons, which in 19th century musical metaphor are descriptive of witches. My take is that the ophicleides are mimicking the bassoons. In the late 1820s, there was no tuba a we know it today. But as Berlioz mentioned in his "Memoirs," 250 ophicliede players in Paris. Perhaps and exaggeration, but his point was that they were common.

Today the ophicleide parts are usually performed on the more macho tubas, but the sound is pretty far from what Berlioz had in mind. Part of the 'raison' for the tuba's use today is that just about all of the modern orchestral instruments are much larger in calibre than their early 19th century French counterparts. (Not to mention that the orchestras have tubaists under contract. But never the less, the tuba can get quite a "fearsome" sound at that point when played well. Perhaps not the original idea, but "fearsome" indeed. I've done "Fantastique" many times and always felt comfortable on the F tuba. The highest note is only the E flat above middle C and it is rendered rather quickly in a run.

On the other hand the Romeo and Juliette dwell quite a bit above middle C involving quite a few high Fs in unison with the trombones in the oratation section of the introduction.

Yes, I can do it on the F tuba, but the euphonium (or French tuba or saxhorn) is actually much closer in tone color, weight of sound and register to the ophicleide than the tuba. I also am a firm believer that we should not try to make certain things so much more difficult than they would have been in their own day. Just because modern tuba players with super chops can play it on tuba does not mean it should be done.

What I found today was that I was able to produce more than sufficient sound with the euph to match 3 very strong trombones. I use of course a rather large euph mp and a good size modern euph. On a dare, I played the same passages in rehearsal on the tuba, and found myself working way to hard for a part that was not intended to be so. While I was fresh it sounded "OK" but I new at the end of the concert, I just might sound like an elephant passing a kidney stone. And at that point, there would be to returning to the euph. Better safe than sorry, who needs dead hero, or "which mountain to you want to die on."

That movement ended in the bass register, after all that tenor range, on a low B natural (everything down) which could be a problem for some, but on my compensating and a large mp euph I had no problem whatsoever getting it in tune with the rest of the orchestra.

So what should we do?
Berlioz' ophicleide was essentially in 9 foot Bb or 8 foot C.
The MP was akin to a bass trombone/euph piece of today.
When we hear a poor example of an ophicleide, it usually comes off rather wheezy, but with a fine player, quite noble indeed. Range wise, I think we can say it is a Bass/Baritone/Tenor instrument. With the above mentioned instrument it is certainly not difficulty to play in the tenor range.

My dream is to build my own valved ophicleide, complete with a dragon head, and maybe a twin to use in "Fastastique." If it could get the sound like my euph, all the better. For others, I believe the euphonium is a viable alternative. My biggest grouse is that it looks like a band instrument in the orchestra, which actually it is. Someday, the valved ophicleide will arrive back on the scene for those contract tuba players to use. Until then, necessity rules.

PM

I've done "Fantastique" many times and always felt comfortable on the F tuba. The highest note is only the E flat above middle C and it is rendered rather quickly in a run.

Um...the highest note (in the original) is actually Bb above middle C. The German edition of a few years later marks the G, A and Bb that finish the run down the octave.
While a BBb tuba is certainly inappropriate for the piece, I think it's doable, perhaps with some judicious octave transpositions.

My conductor said no to octave transpositions. In my piece, the highest note is the F (just before the G A Bb crazy high run, which I am definitely not going for). But right now I can sometimes get the F. I just can't get it all the time, and never with solid tone. I do have a trombone, so I think I'll practice on that to develop my higher chops. Sadly, the BBb Tuba is what I'm stuck with.

chao50 wrote:My conductor said no to octave transpositions.

Sadly, the BBb Tuba is what I'm stuck with.

More sadly, you are stuck with a jackass for a conductor.

Bob Kolada wrote:I think euphonium might be a better bet for the piece, but to answer the question do what it takes to have those pitches sound natural to you. Playing them on a piano (then matching it on the tuba next to you) is a pretty solid method. High notes are all about knowing the pitch and confidence.

That sound suspiciously like the "Think Method".

Knowing the pitch and buzzing it with confidence is necessary but not sufficient. The embouchure still has to have fundamental strength to create the necessary small aperture at the same time has moving sufficient air. That comes from practicing good technique, and lots of both.

I would think Symphonie Fantastique would be a challenge for a college orchestra filled with graduate students, actually. It's on every single audition list for a reason.

Rick "seconding the euphonium suggestion" Denney

Sometimes keeping what's in your part a secret is good business.

In orchestra, just Do No Harm. Nobody's going to leave grumbling "I wanted to hear a tuba play a Super C"

I'd say high F is doable, but equipment does matter. Pure anecdote but I found a reliable and strong high F on a Conn 20K with Helleberg 7B. Probably was mostly the Helleberg 7B, which also gives super smooth slurs.

The other suggestion is to only use second valve and open once you get up so high. If your tuba has a good 7th partial, start there! Someone will preach about slidepulling and alternate fingering, but once you get that high it's like playing french horn, where the buttons and the pitch have less and less to do with each other and the shortest possible length is the easiest. This is not a pro technique, this is just what got me by in college.

PaulMaybery wrote: Someday, the valved ophicleide will arrive back on the scene for those contract tuba players to use.PM

That may not be far off. Wessex are busy developing such in collaboration with Tony George and Professor Arnold Myers

Bob Kolada wrote:I think euphonium might be a better bet for the piece, but to answer the question do what it takes to have those pitches sound natural to you. Playing them on a piano (then matching it on the tuba next to you) is a pretty solid method. High notes are all about knowing the pitch and confidence.

The Chicago Symphony has, on occasion performed this with Mulcahy on euphonium playing first and Gene playing 2nd on tuba.

Below is a response I posted to a question in another thread about playing in the high register on a contrabass tuba. Hope this helps.

"Well, if a note is not centering, you are either not buzzing the pitch on center, OR, the tube is set to the wrong length (e.g., a tuning slide is set in the wrong position for the specific valve combination). So, because brass instruments act of the principle of sympathetic resonance, there is one place where a given note will be the most centered and resonant for the length of the tube. Therefore, the first thing you will need to do is make sure you are playing the note on the center of the pitch by buzzing it on the mouthpiece. It will be helpful to play it against a reference pitch on a tuner. Then, go back and forth between the mouthpiece alone and the tuba, transferring the pitch on the mouthpiece to the tuba. If the note still does not center, then you can play around with alternate fingerings and pushing/pulling slides to make sure the tube is set to the proper length to resonate that particular note.

Since you are talking about the extreme upper register, I feel the need to give you a few words of caution. Arnold Jacobs stated that we must treat our high register with kid gloves, especially in the developmental stages. As we go higher on the tuba, there is a tendency for the tongue to elevate inside the oral cavity, cutting off the air supply. Also, the physics of playing higher notes means that the air pressure inside the oral cavity is higher. Extended practice in the upper register can cause these two things to creep into our lower registers, causing poor results. In terms of the air stream, the tuba is basically a very low pressure and very high volume instrument. Compared to the trumpet, we use three times the volume of air at one-third the air pressure.

The bottom line is that you want to limit the amount of time you spend in the upper register (especially the extreme range you are discussing), and make sure to off set it by doing a lot of work in the cash register. Rex Martin told me that he recommends that 80% of a tuba players practice time should be spent between Bb1 and Bb3, with 50% from Bb1 to Bb2 and 30% from Bb2 to Bb3. The register from Bb3 and up should get approximately 10% and the range below Bb1 also 10%.

Finally, Jake recommended that we use long tones and legato playing for the development of the upper register. It is sustained playing that develops our tone in any register. Start on Arban Page 1, No. 1 and play it up an octave or P5 to start, holding each note for eight beats. He specifically said that articulated passages should be avoided during the developmental stages in upper register development because the act of tonguing can cause the tongue to elevate in the oral cavity and cut off the air supply to the lips. When you work on your tone, in any register, think about what a great singer with a voice like a tuba would sound like, if they were singing using the low vowel sounds, OH, OOH, or AHH, and imitate that while playing."

PaulMaybery wrote: At that famous spot in the "Dies irai" the two ophicleides join with the bassoons, which in 19th century musical metaphor are descriptive of witches. My take is that the ophicleides are mimicking the bassoons. In the late 1820s, there was no tuba a we know it today. But as Berlioz mentioned in his "Memoirs," 250 ophicliede players in Paris. Perhaps and exaggeration, but his point was that they were common.

PM

Actually, this was originally scored with serpent and ophicleide to mimic the Dies Irae chant in the catholic cathedrals where serpent was still commonly used. Later, ophicleides and upright serpents began to be used too (there're method books teaching this), but Berlioz never embraced the serpent and abandoned it early. However, the church learned to embrace the ophicleide, so the replacement was condoned by both, and was a perfect painting of a death service in the church for audiences.

Berlioz never let go of the ophicleide; he did use tuba from time to time (in 8' pitch), but always with the ophicleide. The ophicleide lost out to very, very good marketing. Your other observations are spot on. Cleveland Orchestra, until recently, always used a Euphonium on the first part to good effect - you can hear it well on the multitudes of Maazel/Cleveland recordings of the work.

J.c.S.

Berlioz never let go of the ophicleide; he did use tuba from time to time (in 8' pitch), but always with the ophicleide. The ophicleide lost out to very, very good marketing.

Not to get too pedantic, but I always thought Berlioz was the tuba's first real champion, and that he actually re-scored early ophicleide parts for tuba (though unhelpfully not transposing them!)

Here's a quote from his treatise on orchestration regarding the ophicleide:
The middle range, particularly when the player is not very skilled, is all too reminiscent of the sound of the serpent and the cornet. I think it is best for them not to be left exposed. There is nothing more vulgar, I would even say more monstrous and less designed to blend with the rest of the orchestra than those more or less fast passages written as solos for the middle range of the ophicleide in some modern operas. It is rather like a bull escaped from its stable and frolicking in a salon.

And on the bass tuba
The bass tuba is nowadays very widespread in the north of Germany, especially in Berlin; it has an immense advantage over all other low wind instruments. Its timbre is incomparably nobler than that of ophicleides, bombardons and serpents, and has something of the vibration of the timbre of a trombone. It is less agile than the ophicleide, but its tone is powerful and its range in the lower part is the most extensive available in the whole orchestra.

TubaKen wrote:

Berlioz never let go of the ophicleide; he did use tuba from time to time (in 8' pitch), but always with the ophicleide. The ophicleide lost out to very, very good marketing.

Not to get too pedantic, but I always thought Berlioz was the tuba's first real champion, and that he actually re-scored early ophicleide parts for tuba (though unhelpfully not transposing them!)

Here's a quote from his treatise on orchestration regarding the ophicleide:
The middle range, particularly when the player is not very skilled, is all too reminiscent of the sound of the serpent and the cornet. I think it is best for them not to be left exposed. There is nothing more vulgar, I would even say more monstrous and less designed to blend with the rest of the orchestra than those more or less fast passages written as solos for the middle range of the ophicleide in some modern operas. It is rather like a bull escaped from its stable and frolicking in a salon.

And on the bass tuba
The bass tuba is nowadays very widespread in the north of Germany, especially in Berlin; it has an immense advantage over all other low wind instruments. Its timbre is incomparably nobler than that of ophicleides, bombardons and serpents, and has something of the vibration of the timbre of a trombone. It is less agile than the ophicleide, but its tone is powerful and its range in the lower part is the most extensive available in the whole orchestra.

I'm a big fan of pedantry.

If you look again at those quotes, you'll see a complementary component there. The tuba couldn't compete with the upper register of the ophicleide, and thus it was, especially later, scored accordingly. The tuba did/does have a more powerful and extended low register, and is scored thusly as well. But if you avoid looking at the post-mortem or other later publications of his works (especially outside of France), along with other resources (concerts he directed, letters, etc.) he used them in a complementary manner. For instance, he'd replace ophi 2 with tuba quite often when he could on earlier works; but he found it difficult when he couldn't get an ophicleide to suitably replace ophi 1 (Russian bassoons and other bass horns were not something he embraced).

Also - and I think some research could be devoted to this - he was an influential man, and what he wrote was important; so I'm not certain that there wasn't "encouragement" to print some favorable information about new instruments. True, he wasn't a fan of the ophicleide as a solo instrument (and of course did parody it in the Dies Irae in a sense); but his actual work reflects a sensibility to both instruments recognizing their unique contributions.

Bevan provides a great deal of information on the subject, and there're later works of research that I can't source at the moment. But several composers (Verdi, Berlioz, Bizet, von Suppe, etc.) realized that these two instruments were different and not interchangeable. The ophicleide gained more widespread popularity more quickly than any instrument in history; it wasn't because it sucked

And we still haven't standardized a tuba

BBb CC EB F

Long tones

Long tones are the only thing that will help tone or register

Get the Bell daily warmups from Colin Publications Do it, Play anything you want