Upstream/Downstream embouchure?

[tubajon]

I know one professional who shifts between both types. I was wondering if anybody knows pro players who also switch types during playing. No names, just want to know if there are more than a handful.

[Doug Elliott]

VERY few players are aware of whether they play upstream, downstream, or switch. You can only confirm it by seeing it happen in a clear mouthpiece.

The player I know who switches did not know.

[windshieldbug]

I do, was taught to do it consciously by a student of Bill Bell's, and continue to teach it now.
(but don't use my name)

[happyroman]

Do whatever you need to do to sound great. Focus on the product, not the meat. When you control the product, by definition, you will be controlling what gives you the product.

Here is a link to Mike Grose's Tuba People Facebook page. He posts an Arnold Jacobs quote almost daily. Its like getting a daily lesson from the maestro.

https://www.facebook.com/Tuba-People-101455626584061/" target="_blank

[Reid C]

I have had my band director and two lesson teachers tell me to change the stream direction when I play, particularly for higher notes. I was also told about a pivot method to achieve the change in stream. All three of the mentioned sources are professional tuba players.

[PaulMaybery]

In switching, I noticed both a difference in timbre as well as intonation. I tend to be a "downstreamer" for the most part. When I was younger, as I would switch to upstream in the low register, everything went flat and a bit more "batty" (for lack of a better word)

In find that I need to do a careful warm-up to get things in gear. (Long tones, scales and intervals played accurately and careful lipslurs) My chops, by habit, want to switch around F to E natural at the bottom of the bass clef. For me, getting the top lip to be (and stay) the dominant vibrator in the low register goes against my instinct, but I get noticeably better results, with regard to focus and pitch, by keeping my entire range as downstream. For practice and diagnostics, I happen to use a Kelly crystal clear mp that I insert into a lead pipe. Using a mirror, I can see my chops and detect things that can be improved.

Often times our instincts do not lead us to optimum results. That is where a great teacher is useful in helping the player get those optimum results.

I think the biggest issue after diagnosing the problem and correcting it, is being able to perform it with out having to think about it. Teaching the body a new habit ain't easy stuff. I find ritual and repetition in a disciplined daily warm up is the way for me to develop new habits. And, even at that, it seems to take a year or so for the old habits to fade into the background.

I remember the lessons with Arnold Jacobs. He would go into great detail about what needs to happen. Then he would say that it really needs to be forgotten so we can just concentrate on making music. Things become habit by careful and correct repetition, as mindless and pedantic as that may seem.

[Doug Elliott]

I think the biggest issue after diagnosing the problem and correcting it, is being able to perform it with out having to think about it. .

The biggest issue for a lot of players and teachers is realizing that it's a problem in the first place.

I remember the lessons with Arnold Jacobs. He would go into great detail about what needs to happen. Then he would say that it really needs to be forgotten so we can just concentrate on making music.

I always wonder why virtually every player who refers to Jacobs ignores the part about going into detail about what needs to happen... and THEN forget about it and play "song and wind."

Which I totally agree with.

[happyroman]

I always wonder why virtually every player who refers to Jacobs ignores the part about going into detail about what needs to happen... and THEN forget about it and play "song and wind."

Which I totally agree with.

Well. it is probably because Mr. Jacobs had as much knowledge of the human anatomy as most physicians, and could easily diagnose what the student was doing physically. Those of us who post answers in forums likely lack that level of knowledge (I know that I lack the anatomy knowledge).

I also think it is important to remember that Mr. Jacobs developed as a player himself without ever thinking about, or being taught, what he was doing physically. He developed a very strong concept of what he wanted to sound like and focused on that. He developed a connection between the mind and the tissue and allowed the tissue to respond to the signals his brain was sending out. He used a singers approach, and allowed his lips to act like a singers vocal chords. It was only much later, when he was a highly accomplished musician, that he began to learn about how things worked, and was then able to apply that knowledge to his students.

And, he did say that while it was helpful for the student to know what was going on physically, it was not necessary. For many students, he would not always tell them what was happening physically. Usually, it was the students that he knew were going to be teachers that were provided with the more detailed explanations.

Finally, Mr. Jacobs would often go into detailed explanations about what was happening during respiration and what changes needed to be made in order to play a brass instrument efficiently. However, I can't ever remember him saying anything more than very general comments about embouchure and mouthpiece placement.

[Tom B.]

I studied with a respected teacher who explained that most brass players do a bit of this upstream/downstream stuff, even though they are not aware of it. It might be a bit more noticeable on the tuba because of the large mouthpiece. He avoided using the terms "shift" or "pivot", however, because of the bad press this has received in the past. He referred to it as "embouchure rotation" and it consisted of moving the lower lip slight backwards under the upper lip as you ascend in pitch, and slightly protruding the lower lip (along with lower and more forward jaw placement) as you go lower. The more subtly and gradually this rotation can be accomplished, the better, because it avoids a "break" point in either positioning or in sound.

Tom

[Donn]

I would like to emphasize "even though they are not aware of it." I don't know what I'm doing (and I mean that just like it sounds), but the worst thing I ever did was follow some advice from a book about how you do this stuff. It's fun to talk about it and it can lead to useful insights, but we have to do what works for our own selves, and what doesn't work, we have to stop doing.

[Doug Elliott]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Or incomplete knowledge.
Or wrong "knowledge."

There's a LOT of bad and wrong info out there.

[tubajon]

Yes for sure interesting to talk about.