Tuning does the room matter?

[opus37]

At a recent concert, the brass tuned down stairs in a small room (approx. 8 x12). When we went up to the church sancuary, we were noticeable flat. We retuned with the same tuner and everything was fine. The concert master was pleased. The temperature between the small room and upstairs was about the same and it affected trumpets, trombones and tuba. The only real difference was the size of the space. Does this make sense? Has anyone else experienced this effect?

[Three Valves]

I sound GREAT in the shower!!

[barry grrr-ero]

I think blowing sharp in a smaller room is more noticeable than in a bigger room. My general rule of thumb is that it's OK to be a tad flat down low; be right on the money in your middle register, and that you never want to sound flat in the upper register. James Galway always pushed sharp in his upper register, but I think he took that trend too far (compare Galway and Rampal someday).

[windshieldbug]

The bloke, as usual, is correct. One plays with their ears and chops, and the signal to change slide length is the feeling that it's becoming harder and harder to do so in tune.

In fact, pulling valve slides is actually for resonance, not for intonation.

(compare Galway and Rampal someday)

Other than for vibrato?

[gregsundt]

I agree with Bloke.

A good policy.

[swillafew]

I practice at home with a reference pitch, and then listen in the performance. If I do a lot of resting, I work at matching string basses when I come in. If I am playing constantly, I try to listen to whatever seems most important.

Ivan Hammond liked to say the person most in tune was the one who adjusted first.

[The Big Ben]

The bloke, as usual, is correct. One plays with their ears and chops, and the signal to change slide length is the feeling that it's becoming harder and harder to do so in tune.
In fact, pulling valve slides is actually for resonance, not for intonation.

Good thing to learn. For years, I've found it amusing that the strings and woodwinds have to fiddle and diddle to get the instruments in tune but, whenever it comes to me in the back row, it's one or two long tones and the director moves on to the next one. The slide is set in the "magic position" and has stayed about there for thirty years. (trumpet, french horn and tuba) I adjust the pitch to meet the group with my ears, lips 'n' jaw on the fly.

[PaulMaybery]

I often hear or rather have heard the phrase "tune to the lower instruments - or listen down."
This theory needs one element to happen if the rest of the orchestra is to tune to the bass or tuba. That bass instrument must enter the chord ahead of the others, or else the others can not really react to it. This works in wind/brass groups for the tuba, but unfortunately in orchestras we (tuba) play so seldom that it is not realistic to believe we can dominate the intonation of the whole group. So, I'm not too sure this phrase is really and fully understood.

I love playing in more advanced adult/pro or semi pro groups, (with not too large of a tuba section - optimally 2 players) where just about every one has a good ear and listens to pitch and tonal center. I try to place my sound a minuscule hair's width ahead of the chord and find that, without thinking, the other players gravitate to that pitch.
Now of course this presumes that I am playing in tune, generally speaking. I work hard with intonation and practice scales and arpeggios regularly with a tuner to keep in touch with the quirks of the instruments. When this happens I find that the entire experience is much more enjoyable intonation wise. It is rare when it does as it is a rather sensitive technique to pull off. It seems easier in chamber music, but it requires good ears all the way 'round. It is also good if the group is well prepared and relatively relaxed and focused. These things rarely happen in a chaotic throw together concert. This is where I contend that much of being a fine tuba player is understanding that the whole deal is really a concept that goes far beyond technique and tone.

[Bob Kolada]

Give me a "jazzer"-seasoned-professional 50-something-year-old 99%-bass-trombone-player playing second trombone on newly-acquired pawn-shop Holton lg. bore tenor trombone ~over~ a grad. student with a state-of-the-art Shires.

I'd rather play classical stuff with a good jazz guy than jazz with a really good classical guy by far.

[The Big Ben]

Give me a "jazzer"-seasoned-professional 50-something-year-old 99%-bass-trombone-player playing second trombone on newly-acquired pawn-shop Holton lg. bore tenor trombone ~over~ a grad. student with a state-of-the-art Shires.

I'd rather play classical stuff with a good jazz guy than jazz with a really good classical guy by far.

Heh. My HS jazz band had a really good piano player who had been at it since she was about four years old. Put a classical piece in front of her and she could bang it right out, first time. However, put a popular or jazz piece and she needed quite a bit of prompting. You know- four beats to the bar, every beat held for the same amount of time. Eighth notes- eight to the bar all even. "Take the A Train" sounds a little weird played that way. However, she was a pretty good musician and the director gave her some recordings to listen to as she read the music and, after about a month, she got the hang of it and eventually was able to do some basic improvisational soloing.

[iiipopes]

Several times - over the past two or three weekends of xmas pageants - my slide slipped down c. an inch (x 2, obviously). *MY* intonation never suffered, but what NOTIFIED me that the slide had moved was that the instrument was NOT AS RESONANT, and that I was suddenly WORKING HARDER to play.

Another perfect example that tuning is all in the player's embouchure, and the instrument just helps it sound better.

[tubanonymous]

Changing the room isn't going to change the actual physical pitch, but it will change how your ears work--making some pitch tendencies more obvious, while masking others. Being that pitch is so fluid on brass instruments, a change in mental perception can reflect back into the manifestation of the pitch

But if you could flip a light switch and change rooms while holding a note, the pitch frequency wont change

[PaulMaybery]

It's probably just an illusion, but often times, when I've been playing in a huge concert hall, when I can hear my sound reflecting from the back of the room, it seems as though it is flatter than what I actually thought I was hearing the moment I made the sound. Again perhaps just an illusion.

Perhaps it is merely a timbre issue, and by several seconds later, many of the overtones in the harmonic recipe likely have gone silent, leaving the timbre some what duller in its character. Thus a certain dullness equating with the perception that the pitch is flatter.

Or is it possible that in a very large space with a relatively long delay, the sound waves/frequency actually does slow down a bit, losing energy all before finally loosing its audibility.

I'm sure there must be a physicist out there that can offer some explanation to all this.

Acoustics have always intrigued me.

PM (who can often hear too much and then on top of all that often proclaims to hear what he thinks he hears - but is not ready to be committed - well not quite yet)

[Donn]

Perhaps it is merely a timbre issue

Among the possibilities advanced so far, I'd go with that. Maybe the timbre changes over its long journey around the hall, but anything coming back to you from the walls will be slightly different than what otherwise comes back from the bell. (Maybe there's even a little ringing, which could easily depart from the note partials in favor of the bell's resonant frequency, but hopefully your bell doesn't actually resonate very much.) In a closer situation - a smaller room - the external sound dominates and you don't notice the bell sound. That's my theory ... for your consideration.

[toobagrowl]

Or is it possible that in a very large space with a relatively long delay, the sound waves/frequency actually does slow down a bit, losing energy all before finally loosing its audibility.

Bouncing around, the direction of the echo's bounce might (??) have something to do with the Doppler/pitch phenom.

Yeah, that's what I think it is. The "Doppler effect" in a very large room can cause some pitch & phasing issues if the players are far apart. That, and as far as pianos and organs go, well, we have to match their pitch the best we can as they cannot alter their intonation "on-the-fly" like we (instrumentalists) can. That's also where room temperature has an effect. Cool room = flatter pitch; warm room = sharper pitch. I try to be "aware" of room temp regarding intonation wherever I play. I'm sure many of us has played gigs where the piano or organ hasn't been tuned in quite a while

[dmmorris]

couldn't resist........

http://www.avclub.com/article/experienc ... d-t-210576" target="_blank

[opus37]

At a recent concert, the brass tuned down stairs in a small room (approx. 8 x12). When we went up to the church sancuary, we were noticeable flat. We retuned with the same tuner and everything was fine. The concert master was pleased. The temperature between the small room and upstairs was about the same and it affected trumpets, trombones and tuba. The only real difference was the size of the space. Does this make sense? Has anyone else experienced this effect?

I started this thread with the above information. We used the same electronic tuner. From this discussion, the room shouldn't have mattered. But it is the primary change. The electronic tuner was the primary judge of "in tune" in this case. The ear of several very good and experienced players was the secondary judge. They sensed that something was wrong so we retuned and found we were flat. So, this may be anecdotal or it may be a true phenomenon, I don't know. It doesn't seem to be something that others have noticed or experienced.

[PaulMaybery]

Reception vs Transmission.

This probably has not too much to do with the effects of the room, but more so to the relation of what the ear has previously heard (or what was perceived to be heard) and then what is subsequently played through the instrument. I know I'm having a little difficulty here describing things. Bear with me. Here is an example.

Player #1 plays a note into a tuner. It is out of tune - let's say it is sharp. He pulls out the slide (not actually re-playing with the corrected pitch) Then we move to player #2 who plays into the tuner and is also sharp, though in anticipation of being accused of being sharp, he has already pulled out his slide. But his pitch is still high. Having directed community bands for over 30 years, I witness this happening all to often.

My take on the phenomena is this: Player #2 is matching the pitch that player #1 has played. The tuner in this case is not actually giving a pitch but only reacting to what is played into it. In the situation I am referencing, player #2 kept pulling his slide until there was no more to pull and was still playing the same identical pitch. No one had actually established, audibly that is, what the tuning pitch sounded like. How should he know what the pitch actually was? Is he clairvoyant or perhaps has perfect pitch? Not a fair assumption. If player #2 can 'dial into the pitch' and match it as given by player #1, then my belief is that their ear is good enough to play in tune with the ensemble without being drug through this deceptive and sometimes humiliating ritual of tuning to a silent box. In this case the player was led to believe they had a 'tin ear' when in reality it was better than most. The 'less than conservatory trained' player just did not understand what was happening.

I always felt that tuning to a 'silent' box is not a realistic way to tune. (A tuner does have valid uses, however that is another issue) Player #1 actually established a reference pitch for other players to match. And perhaps without even knowing it, player #2 matched it.

Good tuning really relies on listening and matching. (reception and transmission)

In a large room, what someone perceives that they hear coming off the back wall may suggest a pitch not quite the same as what is really the case. Distance can create an illusion. Tone color change often gives an illusion that the pitch is altered. The ear, I believe will tend to try to match what it hears, or in some cases, what it perceives that it hears.

I hope someone out there might understand my drift. Sorry for the clumsy transmission.

Paul

[opus37]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers to this question. I've always thought tuning was a function of the horn and environmental condition (i.e. temperature) thus a tuner allowed you to set the horn length to get a 440 reference. (Similar to the pitch pipe used to give a choir their first note.) The player's ear then takes over and the tune of the instrument becomes the blending of all the instruments to match that tone and each other. What I think I'm understanding from this is it is more complicated than that. It has a lot more to do with the ear of the performer.

[imperialbari]

Which partial (overtone) does the tuner listen to in a given situation of tuning a tuba?

I listen to a number of tubists on video using good speakers linked by Airplay to iPad or iPhone. Some videos I stop very soon, because the tuba is horribly out of tune with itself.

One tubist I consider playing very well. Not just I think so, as he plays together with very good musicians.

One day I got a video started on the iPad without having it connected to any speakers. This tubist played solo and his notes were horribly out of tune with themselves. Knowing how good this player is, I was most surprised until I realised the listening situation. So I connected the iPad to the speakers and replayed the video. Now this tubist played in tune.

An iPad, even the large Pro version, has lousy speakers for anything but for the spoken human voice. The lower partials of alto, tenor, and bass instruments are so weak that they are next to inaudible in the mix that gets to the listener’s ears. The listener’s brain deducts the lower notes from upper partials that are more a colour than a pitch definition, when listening to the original sound or good reproductions thereof.

At least with the old French style of oboe playing the loudest component of the oboe’s tuning A was the E an octave and a fifth higher, which counted for 40% of the sound level.

So which partial does the electronic tuner reflect? One of those the musician him/herself listens to?

I like octaves being a bit wide, so when I got myself a fairly good digital piano a couple of years ago, I set the tuning to be stretched. But major chords drove me insane. Power chords (octaves and fifths) were fine, but the major thirds were horribly sharp and caused very noticeable beats, so that no major chords sounded stable.

The streched octaves in piano tuning are partly a matter of correcting the stiffness of metal strings, partly a matter of adapting to the phycology of human hearing.

As a digital piano has no strings, I then set the tuning to normal, which by the way is also stretched a bit in the outher ranges. The thirds became very much better. The uppermost register sounds in tune to me, but the lowest octave and a third is a bit too flat. I have tuned the lowest notes up a bit for better octaves, but opening up the snakepit of user defined tuning demands me going over the whole range, which I do not want, so I use the normal tuning setting.

Klaus