Comparing Neptune to PT-6

[AHynds]

Hello, everyone!

Does anyone out there have experience with the rotor versions of both the Neptune and the PT-6? As much as I like my PT-6, it seems that a horn like the Neptune might fit my needs a little better (now that my bass horn is an Eb, I occasionally find myself thinking about getting a bigger tuba than my 6, especially as I gear up for some auditions in the coming year and a half). I like rotary CC tubas, and much of my contrabass tuba playing concept comes from the German BBb tradition and sound. I know that the Neptune's are a rare beast, but I still wanted to check to see if anyone had playing time on both horns. I've played the MRP CC a few times now, and didn't really like it, so I'm still on the hunt. Any impressions would be warmly received!

Aaron H

[bort]

Drop a line to TheHatTuba, he can give you his opinions.

My opinion from owning a Neptune and only a few minutes behind a PT-6 -- the Neptune is NOT going to give you a more focused BBb-like sound. You'd probably want a Fafner.

[AHynds]

Huh, good to know! It probably says a lot about my taste in tuba sound that one of the best tubas I've ever played was a good brass Fafner.

Drop a line to TheHatTuba, he can give you his opinions.

My opinion from owning a Neptune and only a few minutes behind a PT-6 -- the Neptune is NOT going to give you a more focused BBb-like sound. You'd probably want a Fafner.

[TheHatTuba]

The Neptune and PT6 share a lot. The bottom bow/bell (the bell is based on an old Melton(?) kaiser) and leadpipe/5th valve configuration are the two big differences.

The PT6 is supposedly a compromise between the CSO York and the medium York CC Bob Tucci had with rotary valves. "Germerican"

The Neptune has a very wide sound due to the 20.5" bell. I prefer the playing characteristics of the Neptune to the PT6, but they are more similar than not. For what it's worth, the person I sold the PT6 to was replacing a Neptune.

The MRP-CC is a PT6 with a Fafner bell/bottom bow... "German," and my favorite of the three horns. If you weren't fond of the MRP-CC, I am not sure you would like the Neptune... just an opinion.

Some larger-than-PT6 "German" CC's with rotary valves to consider are the Rudy 5/4 and MW Tuono.

[bort]

The Rudy 5/4 is a good idea. Or an Alexander 164.

Expensive, rare, and amazing.

[AHynds]

Awesome, thanks for the info! I'll have to try and get my hands on a Neptune, to try it out for myself. And I'm not quite sure why I haven't clicked with the MRP CC--on paper, it sounds like everything I could possibly want in a tuba. The Rudy 5/4 is my dream horn--I'd do anything to get my hands on one of those bad boys.

The Neptune and PT6 share a lot. The bottom bow/bell (the bell is based on an old Melton(?) kaiser) and leadpipe/5th valve configuration are the two big differences.

The PT6 is supposedly a compromise between the CSO York and the medium York CC Bob Tucci had with rotary valves. "Germerican"

The Neptune has a very wide sound due to the 20.5" bell. I prefer the playing characteristics of the Neptune to the PT6, but they are more similar than not. For what it's worth, the person I sold the PT6 to was replacing a Neptune.

The MRP-CC is a PT6 with a Fafner bell/bottom bow... "German," and my favorite of the three horns. If you weren't fond of the MRP-CC, I am not sure you would like the Neptune... just an opinion.

Some larger-than-PT6 "German" CC's with rotary valves to consider are the Rudy 5/4 and MW Tuono.

[Wyvern]

The Neptune and PT6 share a lot. The bottom bow/bell (the bell is based on an old Melton(?) kaiser) and leadpipe/5th valve configuration are the two big differences.

The PT6 is supposedly a compromise between the CSO York and the medium York CC Bob Tucci had with rotary valves. "Germerican"

The Neptune has a very wide sound due to the 20.5" bell. I prefer the playing characteristics of the Neptune to the PT6, but they are more similar than not. For what it's worth, the person I sold the PT6 to was replacing a Neptune.

The MRP-CC is a PT6 with a Fafner bell/bottom bow... "German," and my favorite of the three horns. If you weren't fond of the MRP-CC, I am not sure you would like the Neptune... just an opinion.

Some larger-than-PT6 "German" CC's with rotary valves to consider are the Rudy 5/4 and MW Tuono.

I always thought the Neptune shared the same bell as MW 2165. It has a lot larger bell throat than the PT-6 at 19" circumstances against 17". I owned a PT-6 before Neptune and the Neptune has much broader tone - more so than Fafner in my opinion.

I have not spent much time on the Rudy, but found that a lot more work than the Neptune.

[bort]

To me, the Neptune was like a big piston tuba, minus about 15% of the piston-ness. Not at all like a rotary tuba to me -- which means it was easy as hell to play, easy to sound huge, and not a very focused kaiser-like sound, at least not without some work.

Awesome horn, but not what I wanted it to be. It was painful to learn that though, I had always lusted after the gorgeous Neptune, and it didn't work out. It's like finally going out with the hot girl at school, and she's into you... but you have nothing in common. Sure, it'll be fun for a while, but there's a limit...

[Ed Jones]

I've got one of each in my studio right now. What do you want to know?

[joh_tuba]

The response and sonic qualities are similar enough that most differences can be ascribed to *that* specific tuba rather than a general pattern.

That said, physical differences include:
1) two slightly longer interchangeable leadpipes to choose response
2) leadpipe enters valve section from top rather than side(no immediate 90 degree turn typical of PT tubas)
3) Larger bottom bow and bell. (maybe other bows?) I've always assumed they were 2165 bow and bell

The bore progression through the valve section are definitely the same *AND* the inner bows are either the same or very similar.

So are they really that physically the same?

Anecdotal observation and opinions:
The Neptune has a marginally bigger sound with marginally less clarity and spoke a smidgen easier in the low register. The Neptune is one of VERY few 6/4 tubas with acceptable intonation and very easy response. I believe that is the real appeal. However, my take away from comparing my personal PT6(I'm biased and mine no longer plays like a normal 6) to lots of larger horns is that nothing of value is gained by using something larger in the settings in which one would want to go big.

[bort]

The MW 2165 has a 19.69" bell, and the Neptune has a 20.5" bell. Perhaps the profiles until the final flare are similar, but it's not exactly the same.

Also, when the Neptune first came out, weren't B&S and Meinl Weston two separate companies? (I might be wrong on that)

I also agree that going bigger doesn't always do what you think it might do. My belief is that "bigger isn't better, bigger is just bigger." I never got to see my Willson and Neptune side-by-side, and now that I own ONLY the Willson, I have no sense of scale compared with other tubas. I do know that it's pretty big, and a photo of the Willson next ot a Nirschl 6/4 makes them look pretty similar in size.

Try a Neptune if you can, though. Maybe you will find that it works well for you.

[TheHatTuba]

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[toobagrowl]

It's been years since I've played a PT-6 or Neptune. So keep that in mind. But from what I remember, the Neptune is basically a bigger version of the PT-6 with a couple small differences. The sonic and playing qualities seemed similar; just 'bigger' in the Neptune. Something about the Neptune, though, always seemed more friendly or personable. I think the cloud-face engraving on the bell and the 'flower' rotor paddles is a big part of the Neptune's "friendlyness". That, and the big warm sound. But both those tubas (PT-6 & Neptune) are, imo, not very 'loud' tubas for their size.

Also, when the Neptune first came out, weren't B&S and Meinl Weston two separate companies? (I might be wrong on that)

G. Meinl bought the B&S factory circa. 1990. Pretty sure the VMI/B&S-made Neptune came out after 1990. The PT-6, though, has been made since before 1990.


edit: Just found the WWBW catalog when the VMI Neptune first appeared. WWBW - Fall/Winter 96-97 (1996-1997).

Here is the description:

"Mel Culbertson Model MW4098MC

Neptune-5 Rotary Valves, 20" Bell, .745"-.825" bore. A true 6/4 rotary CC, designed by Mel Culbertson, the Neptune sounds as good as it looks. Though capable of tremendous volume of sound, the instrument offers the tubist the responsiveness and technical facility usually found on smaller instruments. Supplied with two leadpipes to further enhance the versatility.

MW4098MC .... list 13,900 .........7495.00"

[bort]

Wow, so I was deceived from the very beginning that B&S and Meinl Weston are the same. Just as disappointing as when I learn a brewery is owned by InBev.

Its a shame they stopped making the Neptune, and that they are fading into obscurity. They are good horns, but the 6/4 space is pretty crowded for such a specialty market. I wonder if Mel's untimely death was a factor?

[TheHatTuba]

I wonder if Mel's untimely death was a factor?

Doesn't stop some groups from selling "Fletcher" Eb tubas...

Just speculation, but I'm guessing B&S wanted to focus on selling 6/4 tubas with pistons, not rotors. The new MRP-CC is very nice though, and the price tag reflects the rest of their new lineup.

Also, the first Neptune's had a different engraving than the current ones and did not say B&S or VMI. Not sure if those were different otherwise, but I have heard great things about those ones specifically.

[Peach]

I wonder if Mel's untimely death was a factor?

Doesn't stop some groups from selling "Fletcher" Eb tubas...

Just speculation, but I'm guessing B&S wanted to focus on selling 6/4 tubas with pistons, not rotors..

Fairly sure B&S would focus on selling whatever tubas sold and couldn't give much of a crap what type of valves they had?

[barry grrr-ero]

I own a Neptune and I really like it. However, I do wish I had waited for a good used rotary PT-6 instead. PT-6 is more 'point and shoot' regarding intonation, and its size makes it more versatile than the Neptune. If $ were no object, I'd like a PT-6 for everyday use, and a Siegfried BBb for the really large, low end stuff.

[TheHatTuba]

I wonder if Mel's untimely death was a factor?

Doesn't stop some groups from selling "Fletcher" Eb tubas...

Just speculation, but I'm guessing B&S wanted to focus on selling 6/4 tubas with pistons, not rotors..

Fairly sure B&S would focus on selling whatever tubas sold and couldn't give much of a crap what type of valves they had?

That's the point. I imagine B&S sold more 2165/2265/6450 horns (higher price tag, too) than the Neptune.

[bort]

Meinl Weston doesn't have a good track record for producing tubas with dead guys' names on them.

No Bill Bell model
No Culbertson Neptune
No Deck 2165*

*Ok, Warren is alive and well, but not playing anymore. You get the point.

Seems like MW wants to slap big valves and player names on any horn in sight.

[bort]

I did. Whoops