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lost wrote:I would like to discuss 3 valve Eb tubas. How much for one, and their perceived value among players....

Vintage ones are cheap, a challenge to play in tune and a gateway drug to a four-valve and brass band.

There are a lot of them out there. Since they used to be the starter instrument for kids, there were a lot of them out there. These days, kids are usually started on small BBbs.

Having one that played well for what it was with the silver plating and all of the engraving (if it has it) would be fun even if it didn't have the full usefulness of a 4v horn which is necessary unless it is being used strictly as a bass horn and never has to go below CC. The valves on a lot of the antiques can be quite worn so that needs to be kept in mind. Either avoid them or plan to have them rebuilt.

Parts of the monster Eb can be used in custom creations and 4v valve sets can be grafted on but that is a whole different question.

I researched this a while ago, and concluded the only one worth anything is a Reynolds Contempora. It plays so deep it's like a modern instrument, so it might actually not scratch the "vintage" itch. High probability of intact valves on a Reynolds and very good intonation, you can even set trigger stops so 1-2-3 is dead on every time, no trombonist-level skill required.

3 valve top action Eb is pretty useless, because the 1-2-3 notes are so common. A nice 3 valve top action BBb is worth playing, you can leave out B-naturals or bounce them up the octave and get by okay, but not an Eb.

Plenty exist in the european rotary style. Don't know what to expect there.

I briefly had medium sized Conn with a very cool sound, but lots of resistance, tough intonation, and shot valves. Rare compared to the giant and mini vintage Ebs too.

This is a subject I know a bit about. Vintage 3 valve horns are usually inexpensive and can be a bargain. You have to watch for warn valves, tuning to high or low pitch, and the mouthpiece receiver often only accepts small shank mouthpieces. The range on a 3 valved horn is limited on the low range, unless you are willing to venture into false tones. If you play in community bands, you will have few issues with this. Typically, you will play the upper notes on a band arrangement leaving the lower notes to the BBb folks. Helicons and sousaphones in Eb are lighter, cheaper, have the same issues as concert horns, and are fun to play. I play Eb almost exclusively. Most of my horns are 3 valves. I do just fine. I have had to do restoration to get my horns to play well in modern pitch.

opus37 wrote: Most of my horns are 3 valves. I do just fine.

Of course you do, Brother!!

Bob Kolada used to post here quite a bit and he was a fan of Eb tubas including 3v models. Not sure if he talked that way because his budget was restricted to them but he really figured out how to make them work for himself. Hope he will check into this thread.

I have a little 3v Eb Amati. Frankly, it's not very good but I still enjoy playing it. It runs out of gas at about CC and middle C but I think the high note is more me than the horn. It is fun and wasn't very expensive. I use a Wick 3L with it and it seems fine (Euro shank).

I enjoy playing my 3/4 Eb Cuesnon 3 valve tuba by myself, especially after I replaced the mouthpiece that came with the horn, with one made by Doug Elliott. The high notes sing and the low notes pop right out. I call it my toy travel tuba. When I play with others I prefer my Willson Eb or my King 2341 - better sound and intonation.

Fun subject! Back in the mid-fifties I was started on a Conn three-valve Eb... as were many kids at that time because it was easy to switch from Eb bass clef music from transposed Bb treble clef music. I don't recall being taught anything other that just the 'visual thing' and adding the flats. I apparently was switched to BBb in high school but didn't really understand the transposition. Kids pick things up quickly... more so than when we get older. For some reason I always considered myself and Eb player even though I surely had some experience on BBb.

When I enlisted in The Navy in 1964 I was selected to become a Communications Technician but also mentioned that I was a high school musician. At boot camp at Great Lakes I was put into the company with the 'MU's. They didn't have any Eb tubas so I spent my time helping with the library and carrying the music for the dance band that played for the graduating 'color company' on Friday (or maybe Saturday) nights. Being an Eb player REALLY payed off there!

There was an old Conn Eb helicon at Corry Field so I played with the very small command band while there in training. My first duty station out of class 'A' school was Edzell, Scotland and I continued to play Eb in a couple of nearby town brass bands during the two years I was stationed there.

I quit playing when I was discharged in 1968 and never picked up a tuba again until 1998. Thinking I was still an Eb player.... that's what I looked for. I began with an old Buescher 3V upright valved junker I bought off Ebay from someone in St. Louis. Then moved to a 3/4 Couesnon, a Conn 'monster' Eb, and eventually bought a Miraphone 183 (Eb). None of these horns really had the 'guts' I was looking for so I migrated to BBb... the first one being a Karl Wunderlich (B & S stencil). Until then I never realized what a glorious sound a tuba could have!

My take on Eb tubas is that they can be useful for solo work or as an extra voice in brass bands but three-valved ones aren't much more that just toys. I still play one from time to time but it's one I built from a conglomeration of parts based on a King four-piston valve section. An Eb tuba needs four valves to even be in the running... and like F tubas, should have a minimum of five valves to show any versatility at all.

Dan, I enjoyed your post about Eb tubas. I may have a tuba that passed through your hands. I just picked up a Eb La Sete from EMC. It arrive via greyhound in cardboard box with a "Village Tinkerer" sticker on it.

I'm 55 and have started on a BBb Sousa in 6th grade. I used to lay the sousa on my bed and sit in it to practice. Last summer I went to a St Paul Saints home opener (minor league baseball) game in their new stadium. Three guys came in pretending to play "the saints come marching in" on helicons. I thought, I wonder if I could get one of those? I looked at Ebay and there just happened to be an unknown one being sold in town. I bought it cheap because shipping was expensive, and it was an unknown. It turned out to be an Eb Lyon and Healy Champion Silver Piston. The last owner had it hanging on his wall, he could never figure out how to play it (he didn't know what key it was in). I spent $100 having a local shop clean it up, sorted out a mouthpiece for it (Shilke 60 bass trombone, with the shank milled down to a baritone medium/euro size on the drill press), got out a tuner and various fingering charts and figured out was an Eb.

It was a challenge to learn how to play, but I got good enough to do three tuba Christmas' with the last one taking the horn home to Chicago for a giant one (366 tubas). The upper range is much easier, though I lost some basement notes. Eb's are the offspring of baritones and tubas (granted, I've never tried an F)

Now I picked up the La Sete to try a four valve for more/better range. It's easy to get hooked.

I started on a 3 valve Holton Eb before I moved to Bb. Recently I purchased a compensating 4 valve Wessex Eb to play in a brass band. The band plays at a high level, and since I'm not the greatest player the compensating system and 4th valve is a big help, especially since I'm playing the lower parts on divisi.

So I would say the better player you are, the more likely you can get by with a 3 valve. But the 4th valve sure makes life easier.

Hup

lost wrote:Since i am new on eb and don't know much, does a piston front action Eb with 4 valves at an affordable price exist...past or present...any make? False tones in many ways pop out easier, but the idea of an eventual 4th valve is appealing if it won't break the bank.

They exist. Sometimes they have the 4th valve sticking out of the side like some euphoniums but they are out there. Don't spend less then absolutely necessary. Buying something and "fixing it up" can end up being very, very expensive.

58mark wrote:I jumped on a Conn Eb for $1000, but I spent probably close to another $1000 on it after that fixing an issue with the 2nd valve and adding a 5th valve to it.

But in the end, I have a really unique 5 valve front action Eb. It was worth every penny

This is what is not commercially available *new* today.

58mark wrote:I jumped on a Conn Eb for $1000, but I spent probably close to another $1000 on it after that fixing an issue with the 2nd valve and adding a 5th valve to it.

But in the end, I have a really unique 5 valve front action Eb. It was worth every penny

Very nice...

58mark wrote:

roweenie wrote:
This is what is not commercially available *new* today.

He did say "past or present"

Yes, indeed!

If the Wessex "Bombino" were supplied in 4 piston valve side-action, this gap would be filled....

(Hint gets louder...... )

TubaTinker wrote:but three-valved ones aren't much more that just toys.

That's fair, but we should bear in mind that most of our tubas are toys. The question is whether they're fun toys. I agree that in many applications, a fourth valve is very useful, but I've played in some where it really didn't matter.

58mark wrote:A lot of these piston valve horns have really good false tones. A 3 valve horn might have a really nice chromatic scale down below the fundamental if you make use of those

Yes, indeed. My Holton Monster has particularly nice false tones. Open A-flat pops right out and is nearly as robust-sounding as the 1-3 low B-flat. It can be played right down to the A below pedal E-flat.

Finding the perfect mouthpiece for a vintage E-flat can be a pain. The Holton does not like mouthpieces with really deep cups or large throats. My Martin Indiana sousaphone, however, plays great with everything I've tried on it--particularly the Bach-copy Holton 12 that is my favorite on this horn.

3v Eb tuba = very limiting, imo. Even 4v Eb tubas are somewhat limited for "serious" playing.

Donn wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:but three-valved ones aren't much more that just toys.

That's fair, but we should bear in mind that most of our tubas are toys. The question is whether they're fun toys. I agree that in many applications, a fourth valve is very useful, but I've played in some where it really didn't matter.

That's reasonable. I should have added that needing more than three valves is more-or-less just a personal thing with me. Different strokes for different folks.

vespa50sp wrote:Dan, I enjoyed your post about Eb tubas. I may have a tuba that passed through your hands. I just picked up a Eb La Sete from EMC. It arrive via greyhound in cardboard box with a "Village Tinkerer" sticker on it. ....

Hmmm.... I don't have a Eb 'La Sete' in my database but I think I may have done some business with it's previous owner.

3-valve Eb tubas may be "limiting" or "toys" or not "serious" if you are trying to play in the Chicago Symphony.
They're not toys if you play with a New Orleans style brass band, a rock group, a Mexican band, a Balkan band, experimental music, small group jazz, Dixieland, upper parts of a tuba choir, transcriptions of trumpet solos down an octave and a half, or for general practicing.
Not to mention that serious concert bands in the Sousa era had 3-valve Eb tubas.
There's more out there than just classical music, folks.