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I'm just wondering if anyone uses a 186 (CC) (or any rotary tuba) for playing dixieland, trad. jazz, slightly later (swing) jazz? I know Marcus and Joe, and probably others in NYC, use a 186 for the music they play. But strictly for jazz, I don't really see anyone using a rotary tuba. I wouldn't imagine it's a sound thing, but perhaps it's visual, as the guys playing tuba back in the days the music was born, didn't use rotary tubas.

I'm asking mainly because, here in the Austin area, I've been using my fiberglass CC sousaphone for much of my playing. Lately, I've been getting involved in other groups where the sousaphone doesn't seem appropriate, so I've gone back to my 621 CC. When I have the mic. down the bell, the 621 doesn't sound so small, but more like a bass and that works OK. I'm thinking I might want another 4/4 CC, with 4 valves only. Of course, there aren't a real lot of choices in the new market, so I've had my feelers out for older tubas. Then, I recently played a vintage 186, 4 valve CC. It had such a wonderful sound, I immediately loved it. And, it was 4 valve and light enough to play standing.

Sooo, if I were to be able to get something like that, would it be a strange horn to use in the trad. jazz world?

Thanks guys!

I use a rotary PT10 when I play jazz charts (the bite that I get in the low range works well with the Bass Trombone hits that usually accompany it) and people really seem to like it.

Vintage 4v 186 CC Mirafones....the Bach Mt. Vernon Trumpet, old Conn 88H trombone, old Conn 8D horn, Mark VI sax, etc. of the tuba world. You CAN'T go wrong....the wonderful sound they produce would be, IMHO, great for jazz work...
Mark

That's what I'm thinking, Mark. My first CC was a new 1971, 186 4U and I had it for about 12 years before I sold it, looking for the next great tuba. 30+ CC tubas, later, it might have been the best all around tuba I ever owned. Now, trying to find another one could be difficult.

I have used rotor and piston tubas of various sizes for Trad, Sousaphone (brass and plastic) and helicons quite often depending on the gig conditions and logistics. For some unknown reason I tend to use front action pistons more than top placement, but I have nothing against top pistons. I tried a BBb 186 for a few months way back in the 1980s, it didn't suit me.

Go for whatever works for you!

How about the MW 2145. Piston front action and in CC. Kind of looks the part. I recall in my old "Your Father's Musctache Days, Sam Pilafian & Bill Clark both used Holton 345 CCs. Though that is a tub to haul around. I've often thought of grafting an upright (helicon) bell on the fibeglass carcass. Perhaps Dan could outfit another Sousa in CC for you with that configuration. Gil Corella was using a Getzen CC a few years back. I kinda of agree pistons look the part.

I used my Piggy for everything (even parade gigs) for a long time. It was the best time of my playing life so far. Most of it was traditional dixieland jazz, but also some orchestra, quintet, and church music. Joe is right when he says you go with what you have.
My teacher, Sam Green, used one horn for his whole career, which included being principal tuba with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra from 1943 to 1978. That was not too unusual years ago. I also used a Buescher sousaphone (BBb) for long parades and other outside stuff, but there was someting about that (rotary valve) Piggy that was perfect for traditional jazz. The guys I worked with liked it, too.

Joe, I understand the go with what you have concept. I don't think Harvey even chose his Conn as the perfect all around instrument, but it was offered to him, he bought it, and he used it for everything. In my NY years, I never owned more than 2 tubas at any given time. I used what I had at the time for everything.

But now as a Texan (in my old age), I'm getting more picky (about a lot of things). I own the CC sousaphone, a 1292, the 621 and a BMB f. I could use any of them at any time for any gig, (except maybe the F for jazz), but I'm preferring to use something more suitable for the gig at the moment.

Paul, I dunno about a 2145 or 345. Both would have 5 valves and be too big for what I want.

Tom, back just after my college days, I was called and offered to play in the strolling dixieland band that played at Yankee Stadium. They didn't use music and just strolled around. I declined and made up some excuse as to why I was unavailable. In reality, I declined the gig because I felt like I didn't know how to play tunes for memory. Shortly after when I went to see a game at the Stadium, I saw 2 bands strolling around. In both bands, the tuba players were playing Piggies. I listened and thought, I could play that, but I blew it by not accepting the gig. Shortly after that, they did away with the strolling bands. I've been to Yankee Stadium over 110 times and never saw those bands again after that period of time ( 1982 ish?) The only Piggy I bought was a dog, although I've played nice ones too. I bought it from Walter Sear and returned it after 2 days. A good one would probably be as good as a 186.

True, I hope! It's nice that I created this thread, but it's not like I have a vintage 186 4U CC that's available for me to buy. Maybe something else will interest me in DC next week. I do also want to play at 3/4 BMB CC. I know it's not a 186, but I'm curious. It must be bigger than my 621.

Joe,
I'm pretty sure Eb is the perfect choice for this kind of playing (and a lot of other playing too), but I'm hooked on CC, especially for the improv. My brain can't (even more so at this age) think different fingerings for solos on the fly. For the trio gigs I've been playing lately, I use a mic clamped on the bell of my 621. Through a PA system, you can't tell what kind of tuba it is.

Bill Troiano wrote:True, I hope! It's nice that I created this thread, but it's not like I have a vintage 186 4U CC that's available for me to buy. Maybe something else will interest me in DC next week. I do also want to play at 3/4 BMB CC. I know it's not a 186, but I'm curious. It must be bigger than my 621.

Bill-
Put a WTB on the For Sale section for a vintage CC Mirafone indicating you'll be at the Army Tuba Conference this week and see if any 'nibbles'.....

I spent 5 years gigging in New Orleans. I used my CC186 5U on plenty of jobs... no one mentioned anything about the horn/sep it sounded good! - it was more about the playin'. I got plenty of calls$$ There was no Tubenet to consult then so I never thought I may be using the wrong pipe. I just used whatever I had, hmmm... that 186 plays better than most anything around anyway. That's funny to think about... before folks had a million china/choices we just played whatever you were lucky to have.
I did buy a Yamaha CC 621 during that time for my strolling gigs at Court of Two Sisters and top of the Marriott on Canal Street. I let the 621 go later in life because some of the notes were tuned to an eastern scale. It was a cool horn to play. My prize 186 was getting to beat up doing those jazz/street gigs.
I must admit, it I had it to do again I would have enjoyed having my Conn 36 faux-brass painted fiberblast sousa. That would have been a great French Quarter horn.
Find a cheap fiberglass horn for jazz and spend the rest of the time learning tunes and work on developing bass lines and soloing.

My Jazz horn line-up:
1985 Conn 36 Fiber Sousa for strolling or stand around gigs (painted antique brass) (ok sound great on the shoulder)
2341 BBb 1942 King Recording Bass for sit down fancy gigs (incredible sound and very fun to play - thanks again Lee Stofer)

Classical Gigs
1960 186 CC 5U
1925 York BBb 6/4 (love playing this in a big room/church)
Yamaha F peashooter

Everything else (2 Holton sousas) in the heard is just dead weight waiting for ebay.

TJ

I have played gigs with my 186, both before and after the bell change. It works well.

I played a 186 in a Dixieland band in Chico, Ca in the late '70s. No problems! I would suggest using a m.p. on the bigger side to imitate the sound of a fatter tuba. My approach is to play down-beat notes very clipped, but NOT ahead of the beat - just right on top of the beat. Keep the tuning slides bordering on the low side in an effort to keep the horn from sounding brighter than it already does. That should work. Keep it funky and drink lots of beer.

Bill Troiano wrote:I'm just wondering if anyone uses a 186 (CC) (or any rotary tuba) for playing dixieland, trad. jazz, slightly later (swing) jazz? I know Marcus and Joe, and probably others in NYC, use a 186 for the music they play. But strictly for jazz, I don't really see anyone using a rotary tuba. I wouldn't imagine it's a sound thing, but perhaps it's visual, as the guys playing tuba back in the days the music was born, didn't use rotary tubas.

Probably 2/3 of my work in the last year or so (100+ of my yearly gigs) have been trad/dixie/swingy stuff etc all on a 186CC.

Sometimes just for practice-sake I record my gigs… this week I have been.
I was thinking about this thread, so (while probably breaking some sort of taboo or something) here are a couple of audio examples of ‘186 in trad’ from the last few days (raw live recordings, lumps and all) just from a Zoom mic attached to my phone sitting right next to me (tuba is loud, that’s why)

Each one is from a different band with a different lineup and different female vocalist. 2 contrasting songs each, both from this week.

#1 is totally acoustic, no amps or PA. 2 songs. Room is bright sounding, marble/granite floors and walls. Zoom is sitting on the floor next to me.

http://www.tubajoe.com/music/186-trad-ex1-acoustic.mp3" target="_blank


#2 the tuba is amplified. 2 songs. Room is wood ceiling, floor and walls, very dark sounding. Zoom was sitting on my amp behind me.

http://www.tubajoe.com/music/186-trad-ex2-amplified.mp3" target="_blank


Horn and mpc are the same. (186 4U CC with a Parker Hall/Hitz mpc)

Disclaimers: I’m no purist or historian, nor do I engage in any kind of jazz cosplay. …nor do I ever subscribe to the notion that different/certain types of horns carry any more authenticity, appropriateness or groove yadda yadda. (that’s too much extra stuff to worry about!) Nor do I identify as a player of any specific genre of music...!

PS - Bill, a 621 is fine too. Bob Stewart plays on a 621CC: sounds great, some of the best baseline playing on any tuba anywhere ever.

PPS - also, there's recent photos of Kirk Joseph playing on a regular 4/4 (non sousa) tuba. Can't argue with that!!

I think the 186 is a great choice for jazz. How many soundtracks do you think Tommy Johnson played jazz licks on his 185 or 188 tubas? Most of his Weird Al recordings were probably done on his 188. I remember a music video from the eighties with Weird Al where he was definitely playing his 188.

For any gig where the tuba is actually the bass-line instrument, I think it would be wise to play a horn that easily dumps water. I can't tell you how many gigs I played on my Yorkbrunner where I was just as fatigued by the constant slide-dumping and horn-spinning as the playing itself. A rotary valve instrument where most of the water comes out of the spit-valve through the main tuning slide (like my Bruckner) is so very easy when playing for extended periods of time.

And thank you Joe, for those fine, and fun examples!

I just picked up a great old 4v 186 CC (1965) and will use it on a lot of jazz and world music (not to mention quintet stuff, orch stuff, whatever). It will come out whenever I need something more directional than my rotary Fafner.

Thus far, I prefer it by a wide margin to any of the great Rudy 3/4s I have ever owned/played.

-Jim

jimgray wrote:I just picked up a great old 4v 186 CC (1965) and will use it on a lot of jazz and world music (not to mention quintet stuff, orch stuff, whatever). It will come out whenever I need something more directional than my rotary Fafner.

Thus far, I prefer it by a wide margin to any of the great Rudy 3/4s I have ever owned/played.

-Jim

Congratulations! Great horns!

Of course, 186 BBb tubas can also be quite wonderful for this purpose.
I just bought a very nice one from 1961 - 4v.
Very light, thin, responsive.

I played it on a Cocek (Balkan brass) gig last night and it was really great.
Anyone who rules out BBb is missing out on something special, imo.