Choosing a large 5v Bb Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby oedipoes » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:16 pm

bloke wrote:I might suggest trying sitting on the FRONT of the chair...


Yip, I do sit on the front of the chair.
I play my Eb tuba holding it in my lap on a piece of anti-slip drawer liner, perfect for me.
The Rudi 4/4 BBb stands on a BBC stand between my legs, and is very comfortable to play like that, my Willson 3100 was still not comfortable in that position, so I sold it.
The Besson sov. BBb I played in brassband was also on the BBC stand, but was never comfortable because of the position of the valves with respect to the mouthpiece.
I'm (only) 1.75m tall, so with most BBb tubas the distance bottom bow-mouthpiece is too big, so that the mouthpiece hits my forehead when the tuba is sitting in my lap, even when tilting the tuba diagonally left or right.

I play tubas for my own pleasure only, so they need to be comfortable.
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Three Valves » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:49 pm

There has to be a tuba sling so it can hang from the ceiling...
Who needs four valves??
User avatar
Three Valves
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 2060
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:44 am
Location: The Land of Pleasant Living

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:52 pm

OK then... 8)

heck...I've got a really decent 186 f.s.

Textbook 5/4 bore is 19mm (yes?)

The 186 bore size is 5/4+ ... 19.6mm. :|
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38978
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby pigman » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:12 am

Other than adding stuffiness and weight to the horn Why ever would you need a 5th valve???
You might look for an cerveny 1024 BBb Its what the Fafner ans Seigfreids are copied from
pigman
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:19 pm
Location: long Island, NY

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby ValveSlide » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:43 am

Neptune wrote:Of course choice of tuba is very personal and one person's object of desire is another's object of hate. I know what Wessex is for DP - haha!


Can't complain now when dp gives it back to you...! :lol:
ValveSlide
The Tuba Persuader
The Tuba Persuader
 
Posts: 7091
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:33 pm

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Donn » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:52 am

pigman wrote:Other than adding stuffiness and weight to the horn Why ever would you need a 5th valve???
You might look for an cerveny 1024 BBb Its what the Fafner ans Seigfreids are copied from


When did they last make those, do you think?

One of the advantages of the BBb contrabass seems to be that it doesn't need a 5th valve.
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 4668
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Peach » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:33 pm

Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.
Peach
User avatar
Peach
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:42 am
Location: London, UK

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:35 pm

Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.


...as does a 4-valve compensating system combined with a great instrument.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38978
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby ValveSlide » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:14 pm

bloke wrote:
Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.


...as does a 4-valve compensating system combined with a great instrument.


Man, you've really been converted! Who'd a thunk it! :D :tuba:
ValveSlide
The Tuba Persuader
The Tuba Persuader
 
Posts: 7091
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:33 pm

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:29 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
bloke wrote:
Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.


...as does a 4-valve compensating system combined with a great instrument.


Man, you've really been converted! Who'd a thunk it! :D :tuba:


so-SO many of the old comp BBb's (at least in the USA...likely in the UK as well) are worn-out and leaky...just as are so-SO many old 4-rotor BBb tubas offered on the domestic eBay site from European sources. They aren't worth a crap in that condition. I've had a 3+1 comp BBb for quite a few years with GOOD valves, and it's QUITE a player, with a just-fine low range...with that c. 19.5mm low-range bore serving the design quite well. (I'm moving it's tight valveset over the a detachable/recording body...but whatever...)

(Though I'm delighted to sell them to eager consumers, and own/use one myself - as all of the serious R&D has been invested in this configuration) It's the wide use of that system on euphoniums that I question.
- The instrument can neither rest on the player's lap or chair, and must be supported in the air, thus:
- awkward to hold/play vs. a front-action euphonium, which can easily be "cradled" and played.
- The bore is smaller, which amplifies the inherent "stuffiness" of any compensating system.
- With the speed/facility required to play the early 20th Century euphonium repertoire ("theme varie"...etc.) compensating pistons are needlessly heavy with needless extra surface contact against the casings (which - yep - requires that they not quite fit with as close tolerances as they otherwise could). These extra-extra-tall pistons also add weight to this held-in-the-air instrument - arguably more collective weight than a c. bass trombone-size 5th rotor would add.
- The compensating 4th valve serves pitches which (unlike the tuba) are rarely required of a euphonium player...thus a separate-looped 5th valve to address this parenthetical range of the instrument seems more sensible.
Last edited by bloke on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38978
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby ValveSlide » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:54 pm

And, yet, all those euphers sound terrific in DC and elsewhere...
ValveSlide
The Tuba Persuader
The Tuba Persuader
 
Posts: 7091
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:33 pm

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby oedipoes » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:32 pm

Played Besson compensating euphonium for almost 15 years, no complaints from my side.
Played Besson compensating BBb tuba for 3 years, never again...
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Patrase » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:19 pm

If there is one instrument that is crying out for valves made lighter and with the MAW design it is the BBb compensated Tuba. I recall Bloke saying the older valve manufacturing technique made lighter valves. Combine that with the MAW design (plus Bloke buttons and stems) and that would help us poor Brass band BBb players trying to play fast passages 6 ledger lines below at FFF against a soprano cornet.
Patrase
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:02 pm

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby michael_glenn » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:25 pm

Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.

I play CC tuba in my brass band and it works fine. But looking at the part, I would not want to attempt to do it on a non compensating 4 valve BBb. There would be way too much manipulation of the first slide to get things in tune, and that's a hassle at high speeds. Also, there have been multiple occasions where a pedal B natural has come up. You either need five valves or a compensating system to get that to work.

It was also mentioned that the fafner and Siegfried were copied off of a cerveny. If that's the case, they went in very different directions for those instruments. The fafner is great. But I found the Siegfried to be easier to play in tune, and had a much nicer sound. They were more distinct than what someone may have been suggesting. They are both rotary 6/4 BBb tubas. But they are distinctly different from each other.
Michael Ebie
B&S PT-6 CC
Miraphone Firebird F
michael_glenn
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 401
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:20 pm
Location: Garrettsville, OH

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:38 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:And, yet, all those euphers sound terrific in DC and elsewhere...


The general (as they vary slightly from one make to the next) shape of the bugle of the "euphonium" contributes to a very pleasant sound, and that same bugle taper could be fastened to four front-action non-compensating pistons plus an independent 5th rotor (again, for the - percentage-wise - rarely-played-in low range...rather than long/heavy pistons - with an extra set of holes - having to be utilized - 99+% of the time - without their special feature being either needed or used). Again, TUBAS are played in THEIR low range a much larger percentage of the time than are euphoniums.

...and terrific and determined musicians are going to overcome any design snafus...including terrific/determined trombone players - who overcome the ultra-primitive (and quite leaky) device known as the "seven-position slide".
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38978
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby TheGoyWonder » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:48 am

Low Eb usually sucks on 4 valve tubas, and brass band always uses that note. There's never enough 4th valve push to pull off a 1-2-4 Eb...if you had that, you'd have 70% of the benefit of the 5th valve.
TheGoyWonder
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:11 am

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby kmorgancraw » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:25 am

TheGoyWonder wrote:Low Eb usually sucks on 4 valve tubas, and brass band always uses that note. There's never enough 4th valve push to pull off a 1-2-4 Eb...if you had that, you'd have 70% of the benefit of the 5th valve.


BMB 6/4 BBb has a fantastic 1+4 low Eb with about an inch of first valve slide pull.
kmorgancraw
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:45 am

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby roweenie » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:52 am

bloke wrote:The general (as they vary slightly from one make to the next) shape of the bugle of the "euphonium" contributes to a very pleasant sound, and that same bugle taper could be fastened to four front-action non-compensating pistons plus an independent 5th rotor


I have always felt this would be a great combination.

The difficulty lies in finding a 4 piston-valve side-action set in an appropriate bore.
Trying to take life one day at a time
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:17 am
Location: Anyplace but here

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby TheGoyWonder » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:11 pm

Big problem with front-action euphonium is that the bell points the wrong way. In brass band, the euphonium soloist is traditionally front right. A front action euphonium points precariously in-your-face from that position, so the band has to relegate him to a center position and give his favored chair to somebody else. Usually flugelhorn, which actually sounds better pointing forward.

Better to use top action and keep the euphonium out front, it's a featured part for most of the duration of any brass band piece and at the volumes bands are currently reaching for it can get buried easily. It loses its niceness if the player has to try too hard.
TheGoyWonder
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:11 am

Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:59 pm

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:The general (as they vary slightly from one make to the next) shape of the bugle of the "euphonium" contributes to a very pleasant sound, and that same bugle taper could be fastened to four front-action non-compensating pistons plus an independent 5th rotor


I have always felt this would be a great combination.

The difficulty lies in finding a 4 piston-valve side-action set in an appropriate bore.


If the makers had embraced this design all along, that wouldn't be an issue.

Players can be seated in different configurations. Symphony orchestras are not rigid with seating arrangements, and vary a great deal...some, even, with 1st and 2nd violins facing each other across the front. OK...Unlike symphony orchestras, brass bands are competition-oriented, but please don't tell me that competition trumps music.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38978
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

PreviousNext

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 12 guests