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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Three Valves » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:49 pm

There has to be a tuba sling so it can hang from the ceiling...
Who needs four valves??

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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:52 pm

OK then... 8)

heck...I've got a really decent 186 f.s.

Textbook 5/4 bore is 19mm (yes?)

The 186 bore size is 5/4+ ... 19.6mm. :|
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby pigman » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:12 am

Other than adding stuffiness and weight to the horn Why ever would you need a 5th valve???
You might look for an cerveny 1024 BBb Its what the Fafner ans Seigfreids are copied from
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Donn » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:52 am

pigman wrote:Other than adding stuffiness and weight to the horn Why ever would you need a 5th valve???
You might look for an cerveny 1024 BBb Its what the Fafner ans Seigfreids are copied from


When did they last make those, do you think?

One of the advantages of the BBb contrabass seems to be that it doesn't need a 5th valve.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Peach » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:33 pm

Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:35 pm

Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.


...as does a 4-valve compensating system combined with a great instrument.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:29 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
bloke wrote:
Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.


...as does a 4-valve compensating system combined with a great instrument.


Man, you've really been converted! Who'd a thunk it! :D :tuba:


so-SO many of the old comp BBb's (at least in the USA...likely in the UK as well) are worn-out and leaky...just as are so-SO many old 4-rotor BBb tubas offered on the domestic eBay site from European sources. They aren't worth a crap in that condition. I've had a 3+1 comp BBb for quite a few years with GOOD valves, and it's QUITE a player, with a just-fine low range...with that c. 19.5mm low-range bore serving the design quite well. (I'm moving it's tight valveset over the a detachable/recording body...but whatever...)

(Though I'm delighted to sell them to eager consumers, and own/use one myself - as all of the serious R&D has been invested in this configuration) It's the wide use of that system on euphoniums that I question.
- The instrument can neither rest on the player's lap or chair, and must be supported in the air, thus:
- awkward to hold/play vs. a front-action euphonium, which can easily be "cradled" and played.
- The bore is smaller, which amplifies the inherent "stuffiness" of any compensating system.
- With the speed/facility required to play the early 20th Century euphonium repertoire ("theme varie"...etc.) compensating pistons are needlessly heavy with needless extra surface contact against the casings (which - yep - requires that they not quite fit with as close tolerances as they otherwise could). These extra-extra-tall pistons also add weight to this held-in-the-air instrument - arguably more collective weight than a c. bass trombone-size 5th rotor would add.
- The compensating 4th valve serves pitches which (unlike the tuba) are rarely required of a euphonium player...thus a separate-looped 5th valve to address this parenthetical range of the instrument seems more sensible.
Last edited by bloke on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby oedipoes » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:32 pm

Played Besson compensating euphonium for almost 15 years, no complaints from my side.
Played Besson compensating BBb tuba for 3 years, never again...
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Patrase » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:19 pm

If there is one instrument that is crying out for valves made lighter and with the MAW design it is the BBb compensated Tuba. I recall Bloke saying the older valve manufacturing technique made lighter valves. Combine that with the MAW design (plus Bloke buttons and stems) and that would help us poor Brass band BBb players trying to play fast passages 6 ledger lines below at FFF against a soprano cornet.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby michael_glenn » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:25 pm

Peach wrote:Those people wondering why on earth someone would need a 5th valve on a Bb have probably never played in a high section competing brass band... Those parts are frequently tres mobile way down below standard orchestral rep and the flexibility of a 5th valve helps a lot.

I play CC tuba in my brass band and it works fine. But looking at the part, I would not want to attempt to do it on a non compensating 4 valve BBb. There would be way too much manipulation of the first slide to get things in tune, and that's a hassle at high speeds. Also, there have been multiple occasions where a pedal B natural has come up. You either need five valves or a compensating system to get that to work.

It was also mentioned that the fafner and Siegfried were copied off of a cerveny. If that's the case, they went in very different directions for those instruments. The fafner is great. But I found the Siegfried to be easier to play in tune, and had a much nicer sound. They were more distinct than what someone may have been suggesting. They are both rotary 6/4 BBb tubas. But they are distinctly different from each other.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:38 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:And, yet, all those euphers sound terrific in DC and elsewhere...


The general (as they vary slightly from one make to the next) shape of the bugle of the "euphonium" contributes to a very pleasant sound, and that same bugle taper could be fastened to four front-action non-compensating pistons plus an independent 5th rotor (again, for the - percentage-wise - rarely-played-in low range...rather than long/heavy pistons - with an extra set of holes - having to be utilized - 99+% of the time - without their special feature being either needed or used). Again, TUBAS are played in THEIR low range a much larger percentage of the time than are euphoniums.

...and terrific and determined musicians are going to overcome any design snafus...including terrific/determined trombone players - who overcome the ultra-primitive (and quite leaky) device known as the "seven-position slide".
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby TheGoyWonder » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:48 am

Low Eb usually sucks on 4 valve tubas, and brass band always uses that note. There's never enough 4th valve push to pull off a 1-2-4 Eb...if you had that, you'd have 70% of the benefit of the 5th valve.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby kmorgancraw » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:25 am

TheGoyWonder wrote:Low Eb usually sucks on 4 valve tubas, and brass band always uses that note. There's never enough 4th valve push to pull off a 1-2-4 Eb...if you had that, you'd have 70% of the benefit of the 5th valve.


BMB 6/4 BBb has a fantastic 1+4 low Eb with about an inch of first valve slide pull.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby roweenie » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:52 am

bloke wrote:The general (as they vary slightly from one make to the next) shape of the bugle of the "euphonium" contributes to a very pleasant sound, and that same bugle taper could be fastened to four front-action non-compensating pistons plus an independent 5th rotor


I have always felt this would be a great combination.

The difficulty lies in finding a 4 piston-valve side-action set in an appropriate bore.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby TheGoyWonder » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:11 pm

Big problem with front-action euphonium is that the bell points the wrong way. In brass band, the euphonium soloist is traditionally front right. A front action euphonium points precariously in-your-face from that position, so the band has to relegate him to a center position and give his favored chair to somebody else. Usually flugelhorn, which actually sounds better pointing forward.

Better to use top action and keep the euphonium out front, it's a featured part for most of the duration of any brass band piece and at the volumes bands are currently reaching for it can get buried easily. It loses its niceness if the player has to try too hard.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:59 pm

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:The general (as they vary slightly from one make to the next) shape of the bugle of the "euphonium" contributes to a very pleasant sound, and that same bugle taper could be fastened to four front-action non-compensating pistons plus an independent 5th rotor


I have always felt this would be a great combination.

The difficulty lies in finding a 4 piston-valve side-action set in an appropriate bore.


If the makers had embraced this design all along, that wouldn't be an issue.

Players can be seated in different configurations. Symphony orchestras are not rigid with seating arrangements, and vary a great deal...some, even, with 1st and 2nd violins facing each other across the front. OK...Unlike symphony orchestras, brass bands are competition-oriented, but please don't tell me that competition trumps music.
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby roweenie » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:38 pm

I wonder if a King 2268 4 valve set would work....I seem to recall it has a .562 bore, and that the "English" euphonium(s) are around .590?

Then again, harvesting a 4 valve set off a King seems kind of counterproductive......
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby bloke » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:41 pm

I'd personally prefer front-action...you know: like the really highly-paid players use :P ...except with pistons.

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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Bob Kolada » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:00 am

roweenie wrote:I wonder if a King 2268 4 valve set would work....I seem to recall it has a .562 bore, and that the "English" euphonium(s) are around .590?

Then again, harvesting a 4 valve set off a King seems kind of counterproductive......



I have an Eb thing with a .562 King valve set, a 10" G baritone bell, and a bunch of .562 straight tubing; low Bb is fine, low C is great, and low B can be super rude. :twisted:




Therefore the valve set will work (and I've always liked the low range on .570 321's) but a Chinese/Cerveny .590 set with a short lead pipe might work better. I was actually tracking on a 321 body (nothing before the main slide) for quite a while on eBay even though I had no valve set for it. The best bet for us guys that want a big bore non comp front valve euph is one of those rotary valve sets on an appropriately sized body...

My not quite a solution is to get a King 2266/68, get a large shank receiver on there somehow, rework the 4th valve slide, and use it as a bass trombone sub. Or find one of the rare non comp Canadian Brass front valve euphs!
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Re: Choosing a large 5v Bb

Postby Peach » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:52 am

TheGoyWonder wrote:Big problem with front-action euphonium is that the bell points the wrong way. In brass band, the euphonium soloist is traditionally front right. A front action euphonium points precariously in-your-face from that position, so the band has to relegate him to a center position and give his favored chair to somebody else. Usually flugelhorn, which actually sounds better pointing forward.

Better to use top action and keep the euphonium out front, it's a featured part for most of the duration of any brass band piece and at the volumes bands are currently reaching for it can get buried easily. It loses its niceness if the player has to try too hard.


Unless players end up with almost horizontal playing position for their front action Euph, I don't recognise this.
Here in the UK the Euphonium sound tends to dominate the band sound and that is in our best (also doubtless 'loudest') bands such as Black Dyke, Cory, Foden, Brighouse, Grimethorpe and Faireys (among others). Grimethorpe very frequently adopt the euphs in the middle seating plan and I'll be dammned if I can tell any real difference out in the hall.
On the subject of Flugels, I often find that a flugel (or cornet) played right at me ends up giving a predominance to the 'fluff' around the sound (forgive my technical language...) - not really what I want.

So I say let players sit wherever the hell they want, or what works best at least =)
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