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If you could choose basically any 5/4-6/4 Bb with 5 valves, what would you go for?
Choices seem to be:
Siegfried
Gronitz PBK / PZK (I gather both in stock!)
Kanstul
A converted vintage horn
Rudolf Meinl Bayreuth or "5/4" 5v
Nirschl 6/4 Bb (to order)

Willson

Also add Fafner 5P

Willson beautiful instruments but SO heavy...

Alexander 164 5V

If money is no issue a Siegfried. Otherwise, BMB.

http://www.baltimorebrass.net/picture.p ... ts&id=2025" target="_blank

Only $5200!

Nice list you have there!
I would add a Melton 197 (they make a 5-valve version if you want) and a Hirsbrunner 193.

Peach wrote:Willson beautiful instruments but SO heavy...

Well, in all fairness... a four valve 5/4 to 6/4 BBb tuba is already the largest size of the lowest pitched tuba (i.e., big and heavy). When you add a 5th valve, you are adding another valve, tubing, braces, solder, etc...

My point is, I'd be surprised if any five valve large BBb is going to be particularly lightweight, especially if you want a true 6/4 tuba. Sure, the Willson is probably still at or near the heaviest option... but by how much?

Two more thoughts:
-- If buying new, I'd be curious how many 4v rotary tubas could be ordered as 5v. I forget the model (GR-55?), but the big B&S BBb that's a lot like the Thor/Tuono is only listed as 4v. I bet if you asked real nice ($,$$$) they would make a 5v version.
-- For obvious reasons, I would want to check out a rotary 5v version of the WIllson BBb.

I guess there's something big and 5v that Cerveny makes. In my experience, new Cerveny tubas are like Kanstul tubas. I guess they exist, but I've sure never seen them anywhere... and when you do, it's kind of like "if these are good, why aren't there more?"

I sometimes wished my BBb tuba had 5V. Then I thought to ask an expert if there was a low B natural in any piece I might need to play. He couldn't think of one, and so far I haven't seen one.
I struggled to tune E and Eb, and after some extra time on those notes, have managed to get them tolerably tuned, at least as well as I play in tune otherwise.
If Hollywood ever calls to have me record those pitches, I can bring an F tuba and play them on a tube half as long.

tuben wrote:Alexander 164 = 9.75kg (or 21 1/2 lbs)

Yeah, but that's a 4-valve tuba. You're clearly forgetting the... uh... 6... pound fifth valve? Crap, you're right.

But, there are still a lot of very heavy BBb tubas. I'd imagine a Holton 345, fitted with a 5th valve, could be in Willson territory.

Another vote for the 164 5V BBb. Everything the 163 is known for just bigger in all respects. Not all that heavy for its size.

tuben wrote:Six pounds for a whole step valve? Seems unlikely.

Peach wrote:If you could choose basically any 5/4-6/4 Bb with 5 valves, what would you go for?
Choices seem to be:
Siegfried
Gronitz PBK / PZK (I gather both in stock!)
Kanstul
A converted vintage horn
Rudolf Meinl Bayreuth or "5/4" 5v
Nirschl 6/4 Bb (to order)

While the "5/4" Bayreuth (which is plenty big) is listed here, one can also add the 6/4 Rudy Meinl. A TubeNetter owned and ultimately sold a factory 5-valve version of this BBb monster.

swillafew posted:

I sometimes wished my BBb tuba had 5V. Then I thought to ask an expert if there was a low B natural in any piece I might need to play. He couldn't think of one, and so far I haven't seen one.

- Brass band music, especially test pieces
- several orchestral compositions by Thomas Adès

To answer Peach's question, the 6/4 Rudy Meinl would seem to be more of a "special use" tuba, while the others could theoretically serve as one's only contrabass. I've never played a 5-valve 6/4 Rudy Meinl; someone who has might state that it pairs well with a bass tuba or small contrabass.

oedipoes wrote:I would add a Melton 197 (they make a 5-valve version if you want)

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Melton calls a 5-valve version of the BBb Kaiser tuba a Model 198. I've never seen a photo of a 198.

Does anyone in North American even have a Melton 197/198? How about the Nirschl copy/modification of the B&F BBb Kaiser tuba?

The best I have played to date is still the Nirschl 6/4 BB. I only got to spend an hour on it, but it was just amazing. The second easier to find choice for me is the Siegfried. Just a moose.

I will have both the Seigfreid and the new Hagan 6/4 BBb tubas at the Army Band Conference later this week. You are welcome to try both to see which flavor you like. Yes they are both rotary valve instruments.

Roger

tuben wrote:

bort wrote:

tuben wrote:Alexander 164 = 9.75kg (or 21 1/2 lbs)

Yeah, but that's a 4-valve tuba. You're clearly forgetting the... uh... 6... pound fifth valve? Crap, you're right.

But, there are still a lot of very heavy BBb tubas. I'd imagine a Holton 345, fitted with a 5th valve, could be in Willson territory.

Six pounds for a whole step valve? Seems unlikely.
Willson BBb tubas all list at 27.5lbs.

My big Conn 4 valve is 33lbs and my Willson BBb seems almost as heavy. Haven't actually put it to the scale though. Heavier equals high quality in my opinion.

I´ll second the Willson to be a very effective horn to own.
Yes, it weighs about 15 kg or 33 pounds, but it also offers great sound and superior Price tag. At Thomann, THE online retailer around here, Siegfried, Hagen and the likes will cost you well over 14.000 € (marked down from 17.000) , while a Willson 3100 (4-valved) is currently tagged 9699 €.
So at the price of a Siegfried, You´ll get a pro-level Swiss-made horn along with a used station wagon to haul it.
If mine got ran over by said vehicle, I´d buy it (the horn) again anytime.

My beef with the Willson 3100 was two-fold: 1.) there was no practical or useful place for my left hand, and 2.) the instrument didn't provide a lot of feedback, requiring a keener sense than I have to what is happening out front. Great sound, but seems to me not super-forgiving of players who lack big horsepower.

The Fafner seemed like a superb instrument the time I tried it, but it did not force an instant and lasting love affair as has the Hirsbrunner 193 for me. The Hirsbrunner's intonation is really excellent, and I am only occasionally tempted to use the auto-returning adjustable first valve slide. My section mate and I never have trouble being in tune with each other (he is playing a new Miraphone 187, I think). I'm looking forward to trying the two kaiser Miraphones, and I'm glad they've upped their big-tuba game since the old days of the 190.

The Rudy 6/4 is a special-effects beast, and the miracle of it is not that it is easy to play, but that it can be played usefully at all. It is markedly larger than any of the above. The Rudy 5/4 is more like the instruments we are discussing, but it does have some lingering intonation issues in return for its glorious sound (such as the famously sharp sixth partial). That is a trade-off some of the newer instruments don't require, but the Rudy has been around enough so that used examples are relatively affordable and available.

All of these are significantly different than the Yorkish designs that include everything from the Holton 345 to the GR41. Even in my living room, the differences between the Holton and the Hirsbrunner are marked, and I think in the case of the Hirsbrunner it's a bit more punchy and penetrating in its sound and projection, but without quite the same breadth and foundation, at least with me at the tiller. The Hirsbrunner is about the same size, but it's at least six inches taller, and it's wrapped a bit more narrowly, so the bell stack is much longer, with a bit less visually obvious taper.

Some of these are available with a fifth valve (the Hirsbrunner is not), but the alternate resonances for low Eb and down seem so good as to not miss it, and to prefer it without the extra tubing and weight. I never find myself really needing a 5th, but then I rarely get asked to play below low F or E anyway, and the intonation is good enough on these. The only time I'd like the 5th is for managing some alternate fingerings that facilitate trills, but that also is not exactly a frequent request except in my own practice room.

Rick "who'll bring both the Holton and the Hirsbrunner to the reading session on Thursday--but not sure which one Ray will get to play" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: Some of these are available with a fifth valve (the Hirsbrunner is not), but the alternate resonances for low Eb and down seem so good as to not miss it, and to prefer it without the extra tubing and weight. I never find myself really needing a 5th, but then I rarely get asked to play below low F or E anyway, and the intonation is good enough on these. The only time I'd like the 5th is for managing some alternate fingerings that facilitate trills, but that also is not exactly a frequent request except in my own practice room.

Rick "who'll bring both the Holton and the Hirsbrunner to the reading session on Thursday--but not sure which one Ray will get to play" Denney

Rick, I'm pretty sure the 193 can be ordered from Hirsbrunner with the optional 5th valve.
A German style kaiser tuba is not often seen with a 5th valve, although I have spotted some professional players in Germany with 5-valve Rudolf Meinl, Melton 197 and Fafners ....
In wind band or brass band literature, technical passages require an extra valve or a compensating system, the 'false' tone low notes are not useful when playing 16th notes in the lower register (below 4th valve low F)
A set of triggers might do the job as well, but I would prefer the extra valve.

Just my personal experience (and looking forward to add a 5th valve to my BBb)

oedipoes wrote:Rick, I'm pretty sure the 193 can be ordered from Hirsbrunner with the optional 5th valve.
A German style kaiser tuba is not often seen with a 5th valve, although I have spotted some professional players in Germany with 5-valve Rudolf Meinl, Melton 197 and Fafners ....
In wind band or brass band literature, technical passages require an extra valve or a compensating system, the 'false' tone low notes are not useful when playing 16th notes in the lower register (below 4th valve low F)
A set of triggers might do the job as well, but I would prefer the extra valve.

Just my personal experience (and looking forward to add a 5th valve to my BBb)

I don't have any knowledge of what you could get directly from Hirsbrunner, but my 193 has a dependent 5th installed in the 4th valve slide. It was done using a Hirbrunner rotor (matches the others), and seems to be a great compromise between changing the open bugle and getting the low range extension and alternate fingerings. The only thing I ever miss is the 5-2-3 B-natural, but there are other options for that.

FWIW, the dependent 5th seems to be the option for the MW 197 as well (which they list as the 198 on their website).