Wessex TE465 Gnagey Eb tuba discussion

[Wyvern]

Here is production prototype being tried by Sam Gnagey. I have not noticed it uncomfortable to hold myself.

[Wyvern]

that's not bad. Maybe it's the length of my arms that makes some tubas uncomfortable

Being 6 foot 8, I have really long arms, and it creates challenges

Mark, The only way is to try for yourself and see how it fits. By the time of ITEC, the first batch should only be a couple week away.

[bort]

I agree, the photo of the horn on its own looks funny... like the first valve is way too far away (close to the outer bow), and then the whole valve block is curved back inwards to the player more than usual... or maybe that the 4th valve is just way closer to the player than on most horns? But hey, I'm a rotary guy, so I'm used to valves are in straight lines. What do I know! Sam seems fine with it.

I wonder who the "well-known could have should have" manufacturer is? JinBao?

[Wyvern]

I agree, the photo of the horn on its own looks funny... like the first valve is way too far away

I will obviously have to take/add photo from different angle on website

Can't at present as the tuba has shipped ahead of me to the states for US Army next week - I follow with Wyvern CC as my luggage tomorrow.

[TheGoyWonder]

Why does the valve block angle the wrong way? Definitely prefer angled steeply the other way, like on any Conn/Reynolds/Olds. Unless it's harder to use the thumb rotor that way.

[Bob Kolada]

I was super amped to hear about that, but with the Yamaha-ish valve angle it's automatically out for me. Given the horns Sam is known for I was really hoping for a King style valve set.

[Sam Gnagey]

It seems very comfortable for me to hold and play. I wouldn't have let it go if it caused me discomfort to play. I had that problem with the Besson front action compensator Eb and didn't keep it very long for that and some other reasons. Of course I am used to the Yamaha style cluster because I have (and am selling) a nice YFB621s F tuba that has served me well for a long time.
I urge that no one reject this Eb out of hand because of dislike for the ergonomics of the little Yamaha 621 series horns. This horn is much wider and the valve cluster placement is a bit more to the left side and centered than on the 621. The reach is perfect for me.
Naturally the best test is to try one out and see for yourself. I'm sure it won't suite everyone, but I think it fills a niche for front action tuba players that struggle with the 3+1 Eb system and excels at it.

[Three Valves]

I'd like something like that in BBb!!

[TheGoyWonder]

Okay, if you're reaching down for the valves instead of up then it is the correct angle.

[UDELBR]

Yep. If I was gonna design a horn, I'd have placed the valves Marzan style:



...or at the very least vertically.

[bort]

...Marzan...

You could have at least found a photo of that *after* I had the bell repaired.

rsz_1marzan.jpg

But seriously, that tuba had a unique valve angle -- Dan Schultz said he's never seen another Marzan like that, and he should know! Every other Marzan out there has a "normal" valve angle, this one was an oddball. So if you were to say "I want the Marzan valve angle," you really wouldn't be referring to my old horn, you'd be referring to something like a B&S or Meinl-Weston valve block -- totally what you'd expect.

The Wessex photos make it appear that it curves back in towards the player more than usual. Maybe it's just an illusion, maybe Sam has crazy arms shaped like that, or maybe it actually IS at a weird angle. After the army band conference this weekend, we will all know for sure. Just like when the BMB 6/4 was there and many people made it quite clear that the werido York style short mouthpipe was, well, weird.

[UDELBR]

But seriously, that tuba had a unique valve angle -- Dan Schultz said he's never seen another Marzan like that, and he should know! Every other Marzan out there has a "normal" valve angle, this one was an oddball. So if you were to say "I want the Marzan valve angle," you really wouldn't be referring to my old horn, you'd be referring to something like a B&S or Meinl-Weston valve block -- totally what you'd expect.

Your Marzan wasn't 'unique' enough to discount what I'm saying. But nitpick all you want. Here are plenty more illustrations to choose from. And your comment re: "B&S or Meinl Weston" is a headscratcher, as neither of them make diagonally-slanted valves.

The Wessex photos make it appear that it curves back in towards the player more than usual. Maybe it's just an illusion, maybe Sam has crazy arms shaped like that, or maybe it actually IS at a weird angle.

Look at this picture of the Wessex, then comment as to whether or not it's a "weird angle" or not.



Uncle "suddenly reminded of why professionals rarely post here any more" Beer

[Steve Inman]

I'm interested to know how it compares, sound-wise, to a YEB-381. Similar bore, 1.5 - 2 inch wider bell. It rather looks like an affordable version of a 2141. I'll be looking for posts with impressions next week!

Will the prototype make its way to the Michigan store, eventually?

Thanks.

[MaryAnn]

I gave up very quickly on front piston tubas because of short arm length. It seems that if you're not in the middle of the bell curve for arm length, you're going to have a wrist angle problem unless you're willing and able to move the leadpipe to a position that straightens out your arm. I have opted for rotaries because I can always play relaxed. Even if the angle to the paddles is not quite right, I can still make them work. Even five minutes on a front piston tuba will put me in pain.

[bort]

And your comment re: "B&S or Meinl Weston" is a headscratcher, as neither of them make diagonally-slanted valves.

Well then I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, my mistake. I still think the non-bort Marzan tubas have more decent valve angles than mine did (e.g., mine was more horizontal than angled).

Look at this picture of the Wessex, then comment as to whether or not it's a "weird angle" or not.

Frankly, it looks even weirder in that photo. It makes it look like the leadpipe is too long, and the workaround was to rotate the piston block a bit to get it all to fit... with the end result being that the 4th valve is rotated farther in towards the player.

That's that it looks like to me, you don't have to agree. And yes, I understand that if Sam designed this, he knows what he's doing, did it on purpose, blah blah blah. Sometimes though, things are just funny looking. And this, from those pictures, to me, is funny looking. Trust me, I mean no disrespect to Sam.

Uncle "suddenly reminded of why professionals rarely post here any more" Beer

I love you too.

[PaulMaybery]

I look at that valve cluster and see one that pretty much corresponds to finger lengths.
The 1st 3 valves are pretty close to vertical and the 4th is brought forward in keeping with the short 4th finger (Pinky).

Looks very comfortable to me. It also depends on the angle of the hand and that is determined how a player holds the instrument.

I suppose it can also depend on whether the player plays with flattenend fingers or arched. Those of us who came under Bill Bell's influence are used to keeping our fingers pretty flat.

[bort]

I suppose it can also depend on whether the player plays with flattenend fingers or arched. Those of us who came under Bill Bell's influence are used to keeping our fingers pretty flat.

I'm glad you said that, because my thought was, when I hold my hand in a playing position, my fingers are arched... and look a whole lot more in a straight line than they do when they are flat.

For pistons, at least.

For rotary valves, I get lazy sometimes and keep my fingers more flat than arched.

Again, I'll be interested to hear what people think of this after putting the horn through its paces this weekend.

[Adam C.]

I'd love some playtest reports of this horn from anyone at Ft. Myer this weekend.

[PaulMaybery]

I suppose it can also depend on whether the player plays with flattenend fingers or arched. Those of us who came under Bill Bell's influence are used to keeping our fingers pretty flat.

I'm glad you said that, because my thought was, when I hold my hand in a playing position, my fingers are arched... and look a whole lot more in a straight line than they do when they are flat.

Much of the comfort/discomfort in the right hand fingers is related to the position of the thumb angle. If the angle is approaching 90 degrees with relation to the forefinger, this tends to put a strain on the finger tendons. As the thumb is brought closer to the forefinger in an almost parrallel position, that tendon tension is somewhat more relaxed. Some players avoid using a thumb ring for that reason. When we have the 5th valve installed for activation by the right hand, we open up a pandora's box with a number of ergonomic issues. It appears that on the Gnagey Eb tuba, the thumb is not really stretched all that much and the hand can be used rather in a natural position. But I think it does need to be tried to be appreciated and that I am probably jumping to conclusions.
I'm sure Sam is very pround of his creation, and justly so. There are several visual elements of the design that naturally challenge the way we think of the form of this tuba. I applaud him for thinking outside the box.

[Tom Coffey]

However, my conn is really nice for me, because the valve block is high on the horn, but at a good angle

[/quote]
That is a very interesting little Conn. Obviuosly, at least one valve was added. I can't remember seeing another like it.