TubeNet

Hi all,

I was curious of different perspectives about when one is "ready" to step up to a 5/4 or 6/4 contrabass (CC or BBb).

My main question is whether you all believe in advantage of playing larger horns sooner to become familiar more quickly, or if there is any detriment to a player's progression by playing one prematurely? Should they stick with a 4/4 until they are "good enough"?

I've had a few conversations recently with quite differing viewpoints and was hoping for some insight.

To me, I feel someone should step up to a 5/4 or 6/4 when they are at a point in their life when it would be the best tool for the job. Starting someone too soon could be frustrating because of the quirks of playing a 6/4 horn. Maybe that is a little too simple, though.

bloke wrote: There is no "moving up" to a larger tuba. There is only moving OVER to a DIFFERENT size (or length or fatness or make/model or SAME make/model that "plays better than yours") of tuba.

And it is time to MOVE OVER when you have developed a reasonable facility and your current tuba CANNNOT produce the sound you want in the conditions you want it to.

Moving to a much larger horn has the potential of magnifying all your foibles. Whatever little quirks you have with regard to breathing, embouchure (corners, balance of vibration from upper and lower lips) posture, intonation issues, etc, all seem to be more of an issue for instance in moving from a 4/4 to a 6/4.
6/4 horns require somewhat of a "concept" of sound when it comes to playing them. You can get a great deal of "bang for your buck" when presence and a real depth of sound is required. They can be used to play soft very well, but again, "dialing into" that concept is kind of an important thing. Everything you do needs to be on a larger scale. Not necessarily more strenuous, but just larger. Even the softs get approached with a large air supply.

Often times, on piston horns, the valves are larger, heavier springs, thus a bit more exertion. There is the physicality of maneuvering the tuba. At stand is often the best route. You may even what to use a hand cart to transport the beast. Using a BAT is really cool, but there is a trade off. It can do things a 4/4 can not, but it is not always that flexible when trying to be delicate. So you will want to ask yourself if you can or want to live with that situation.

Personally I love using a BAT in large really fine symphonic bands, and on certain things in symphony orchestra. It would also be good in a full brass choir/ensemble situation. I do find that I need an alternative tuba for certain lighter things, and for that I use a large 6/4 F tuba. My take is that unless you are prepared to have at least 2 horns, having a BAT is not an all purpose horn. A third horn in the form of a 4/4 is also pretty much needed.

I guess what I am saying is that switching to a 6/4 only, might limit your flexibility when it comes to addressing a variety of gigs.
Keep your other horns for those appropriate situations. Think of the BAT as an "extra."
The perk that comes with doing most of your practicing on the BAT is that the other horns begin to feel much lighter and easier to negotiate.

A few years ago there was a tuba clinic at the Chicago brass festival. Most of the students had the biggest horns you can buy, and all the presenters had something far smaller. One young lady played a well known concerto on a horn as big as she was (pretty well too).

I kept my eye on the clinicians, and learned one plays everything on one horn and (rotary Eb) and one mouthpiece.

Travis99079 wrote:I was curious of different perspectives about when one is "ready" to step up to a 5/4 or 6/4 contrabass (CC or BBb).

Travis,

The question to ask may be, "When is one "ready" to step up to a better tuba," not necessarily a larger horn.

When I began formal tuba lessons, the only horn that I had was a Conn 25J--certainly a 6/4 size tuba.

Although he never insisted that I spend money on a different or additional tuba (or even a different mouthpiece), eventually my instructor told me that the Conn was holding back my progress. That's when I went searching for a really fine instrument.

After months of watching OLD TubeNet, eBay, etc., I found a 4/4 CC that Walter Nirschl himself and his staff built in Geretsried in 1994. When I brought it to my instructor to test-play, his remark was, "This is a very special horn." The 4/4 Nirschl CC is certainly smaller than the Conn 25J. But it is still the horn that I use more than my other tubas, one of which is a 6/4 CC.

It is undeniable that playing a 6/4 tuba can be fun. Some other positive traits of 6/4 tubas have already been stated in this thread. But a 6/4 tuba may not be a "step up" from what you already have. It also may not help you achieve your goals with the tuba. It depends upon what your personal goals are.

Travis. In rereading your post, you mention an important point, that being actually beginning on a very large horn. I do think that has the potential to be rather advantageous. Bear in mind that I've been playing well over 50 years and come from a generation when HS bands sported huge Conn and Holton 6/4 tubas and expected us kids to actually play them. Unfortunately my school was not one of them so I learned on a beat up old Holton sousaphone that was not necessarly very large. The neighboring HS had Conn recording basses. I tried one once and got lost in the vast size of the horn and could not, for the moment, manage to do much with it.
The kid playing it was not anymore musically advanced that me, but he was "dialed into" how to blow that puppy. When he played my horn, it was like he had super lungs. He was not a giant either, just a normal sized HS kid. I think it is much easier to go from larger to smaller than the reverse. Like ball players warming up with a weighted bat. But when you do learn on a BAT, you are more or less challenged to play more efficiently from the "get go when it comes to support and the physicality of negotiating the various registers of the instrument. And those traits, I strongly believe, are beneficial in your development on even the smaller horns. Deep relaxed respiration, avoidance of body tension, open oral cavity and throat, well developed embouchure, and a sense of a long and unforced blow when it comes to supporting a tone. This is one of the reasons that in later life I chose to get myself a BAT, so that it a remedial way, I could readdress and pollish those physical aspects of my playing.

Whenever you feel like it. The same can be said of any other kind of tuba.

From my perspective as a hobbyist, the right time to get a big instrument is the confluence of three factors: 1.) you want to, 2.) the one that floats your boat is available, and 3.) you have the money. If playing a big beast is what motivates you to put lips to mouthpieces year after year, then you have your answer. Hobbyists don't have to be as concerned about whether they have the ability to exploit the potential of a big tuba. I certainly don't, and I own two large instruments as my main contrabasses.

I like Paul's answer a lot, and my own experience confirms his story exactly. We forget that most of these American-style jumbo tubas were made for school bands, and kids learned on them. Pursuant to Dale's warning, I'm sure these are not damaging to play, but I'm also sure that those who are attracted to these want the size of sound the pursuit of which can sometimes be damaging. Using them to get the most out of your abilities is different than trying beyond one's air power to get all that the instrument can deliver.

But playing a 6/4 instrument in a small ensemble is going to be a real challenge to provide a clear voice. That's why I use an F tuba for brass quintet and other chamber ensembles.

For a pro, the right time is when you get a gig where such an instrument makes your job easier, not harder.

Rick "who does this for fun" Denney

When to switch to a larger tuba? When you want to start having more fun!

I agree with the sentiment some others have already expressed. You're going about this the wrong way if you're thinking of switching to a bigger horn as "stepping up". Does a carpenter step up to a larger hammer if he prefers that? A tuba is a tool, you pick the one that suits you and the job you're doing. The second half of that is where I would suggest you focus. Right now, what kind of playing do you primarily do? Is there an instrument that fits those jobs? I see many college age students rushing to grab the nearest 6/4 tuba they can find. But how does that help them? College students have to play in ensembles and (if they're pursuing a performing career) will have to learn how to win an audition as well as learn types of playing other than orchestral to make them capable to work. So a 6/4 may make very good sense for most or all of that. But what about solo playing? What about chamber music playing? There are lots of types of playing that you'll do in college that won't occur much in the professional world. A 6/4 might shut you out of those opportunities or force you to make compromises by using equipment not particularly suited to the task.

Think long and hard on determining what tuba sound really drives you and embodies what you want to sound like. But always take into account the playing you are usually doing and keep a practical approach to having equipment in your hands that helps you sound your best in whatever you're playing. It's a long journey we all take, enjoy the ride!

tuben wrote:Worry more about becoming a great musician who plays the tuba than the size of the 'tool' in your lap.

Being an amateur, a marching band junky and also a former youth band director, I sort of came at the problem differently. In high school and college I learned to play with a lot of projection and use my lungs efficiently. But I never had any dreams of playing professionally, I enjoyed teaching. I taught marching bands for many years and came to really enjoy the solid bottom as part of the ensemble sound. My problem was that I could over blow a lot of horns and the sound would be too edgy for my taste. So, after I started playing regularly again, since as a director I didn't get much time for that, I started my search for a horn I couldn't over power. I found this website back in 2000 and started doing my research into what horns to consider. I am also a BBb player, I never made the switch over to CC. I am also not a soloist, I have an ensemble mentality. All the talk on TubeNet about the mythical Holton 345 intrigued me, so I started looking for one. I finally found one and when it arrived the first note I played was an "oh wow!" moment. For me it was a perfect fit. It matched all my ideals about how a tuba should sound. It made me happy! And the directors of the bands I play with have told me that they really enjoy that sound of it too.

But choosing a tuba is a very personal thing and every player will have a different reason for the sound they want from their horn. So don't switch to a bigger tuba just for the sake of doing it, have a good reason to do it. If you're a pro player, then you have criteria to match for the gig you have, so play the horn that is right for the job.

swillafew wrote:I kept my eye on the clinicians, and learned one plays everything on one horn and (rotary Eb) and one mouthpiece.

I think I've got a pretty good guess who that is and would wager that I've been to a couple of his master classes. You have to keep in mind that the scope of his playing (his role in different ensembles) and the type of music he plays is quite different from the average tubist who is the bass or contra-bass voice in an ensemble ranging from about five people to well over 50. He in fact doesn't have a job in an ensemble at all. Right?

I don't believe he has an ensemble job.

I'm not sure you should give this thought ANY attention, but Roger Bobo told a friend of mine - who'll remain nameless - that a much higher proportion of 6/4 tuba players ended up getting focal dystonia. If that's true, it is a bit worrying.

For about 20 years the only CC tuba I had was a Walter Sear Piggy Cerveny. That horn took me all around the world, playing solos, quintets and large ensemble gigs. I used it when I subbed with the Boston Pops at Tanglewood. When you only have one horn, you make it work for you in every situation. I use that horn today for chamber orchestra and quintet playing and still love the sound and flexibility of the instrument.

Just my $0.02.
Roger

barry grrr-ero wrote:much higher proportion of 6/4 tuba players ended up getting focal dystonia. If that's true, it is a bit worrying.

Or especially worrying, depending on causation/correlation. If it's because the kind of player who likes a 6/4 tuba, is also the kind who's prone to this malady, then there's no escape! More likely though, it's based on anecdotal evidence and fails to take into account the number of old guys playing 20Js etc.

Now that you mention it, I sometimes pick up a small sledge to drive an ordinary nail, not the typical application I'm sure.

Donn wrote:Now that you mention it, I sometimes pick up a small sledge to drive an ordinary nail, not the typical application I'm sure.

Well, if it's all you've got (or all you've got in the barn at the moment, or whatever). I'll use a ball peen for that if it's only one nail, isn't important, and the good hammer is too far away. But I don't think I've ever used the 15 lb sledge in this way. Just seems "imprudent".

My wife, on the other hand, has been known to try to drive a nail with a plastic mallet. Now that's HER plastic mallet.