TubeNet

Hi there,

I'm primarily a trombone player and am now dabbling on tuba.

A lot of tubas I tried weren't what I would call "point and shoot", that means good intonation, overall simple playing, good sound etc... Of course, more practice would make me sound better, but there is no time for it.

So, generally speaking what is an easy to play, and well in tune Eb tuba? I'd prefer pistons, but rotaries are also ok.

Besson 983

186

TubaBum wrote:What about a 3/4 size BBb instead? You'll have better luck with intonation. But if you insist on E-flat, maybe a Wessex top action E-flat?

I don't necessarily insist on Eb. Why would you think intonation on BBb is better? I like Eb because of their small sizes. Are there any BBb in the size of the Besson 983?

iiipopes wrote:186

Someone already suggested the 186 to me. What tunigs do they come in? C or F is not ok for me. Eb or BBb would work.

Miraphone 186 is BBb and C.

Tuba is not a hard instrument to play, but I would sure expect that a good trombone player who doesn't have much time to practice the tuba, might very likely be dissatisfied with his ability to play in tune.

Some further information about your ambitions with the tuba might help. If you're looking for something economical, I wonder if a smaller contrabass like a Yamaha YBB 103 might have the virtues you're looking for in the Eb bass tuba, and be easier to play in tune than most full size contrabass tubas?

Most any 3/4 BBb is the same size as a top-action Eb. I'm guessing you want cheap too, and 3/4 BBb is the cheapest tuba you can get. That's not because they're bad! The bigger the tuba, the longer it takes from attempting to start a note and getting anything out of it and that's kinda the biggest scourge in all of tuba playing. Eb tubas give a faster, simpler, clearer sound especially high. Low notes are harder on Eb tuba, at least they sound comically low when you hit them.

Olds 3/4 tuba, also made as Reynolds and remade as Bach, are really good. Fast-responding, good intonation with only 2 notes needing attention on the 3 valve (possibly none on the 4 valve). Simple, classic tuba sound lacking only in sheer bass compared to a fullsize tuba (but probably more than most Eb tubas).

Yamaha 3/4 tubas are smaller and even easier, just don't want to try to play too loud on one. The desirable front-action 103 isn't easy to find. Both these 3/4 tubas are going to be minimum 20 years old - guess there was a dark age of tuba for a while there.

If you do want a full 4/4 4-valve tuba, Cerveny/Amati might serve you well. Light weight makes it easy to play and gives a certain type of projection.

My personal journey might be of help to you. After 45 years of trombone only I started with a 1901 Conn Eb with a 4th valve added by Lee Stofer. I needed to double to have more flexibility in my quintet. I went back to Lee after a year and swapped it for a German rotary of the same vintage because I thought BBb might help my problem with landing on the wrong partials to often. I was wrong. It was me not the horn. I wanted a bigger sound so I bought a 184 and got not that only that but better intonation. Still had to pull 1 though. After a few years I decided to go to a piston and bought a Yamaha 621. After about 6 months of both I sold the Yamaha and went back to the 184 full time. Still looking for a little less soloistic sound, I bought an Olds O-99 for a few hundred off ebay and sent it to a really good tech for an overhaul.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33942&hilit=ebay+treasure" target="_blank"

That began 7 years of a love affair that has exceeded my expectations. This horn has the fat tuba sound that my quintet and I wanted on the bottom of the chords. It is a broad sound that is much easier to tune with. It also allows me to lip up and down about 10 cents without appreciably affecting the quality of sound. It is light enough so my old bones can easily carry it. It has plenty of volume to balance a quintet/small orchestra. Joe fixed the 1st valve slide to make an easy pull but quite frankly I've never used it. Don't have to. Occasionally I have to use alternate fingerings to get something in tune but most of the time I just lip it. These horns come up on ebay from time to time for less than $1000. They all will require work, particularly fixing the slide lengths as Joe did for me, but it is worth it.

Compensating Eb is what you want. You'll like the size. You'll like the response. You'll like the pistons. You'll like the intonation (unless you manage to get a crappy one). You'll like the mouthpiece you can use. You'll like the lack of slide pulling. It will cover any range you'll come across. Tune it, pick it up, and play it. Done.

Take a look at the Wessex horns. You'd probably want one with one of the smaller bells rather than the 19" one.

GHMerrill wrote:
Compensating Eb is what you want. You'll like the size. You'll like the response. You'll like the pistons. You'll like the intonation (unless you manage to get a crappy one). You'll like the mouthpiece you can use. You'll like the lack of slide pulling. It will cover any range you'll come across. Tune it, pick it up, and play it. Done.

Take a look at the Wessex horns. You'd probably want one with one of the smaller bells rather than the 19" one.

Thumbs up +

Wessex has a couple of really fine models for Ebs.
There Bb line is good too. Check out the "Stumpy"

I'll second the 3/4 BBb tubas. Any of the Conn horns (3 valve: 10J, 11J, 12J...4 valve: 4J, 5J) are very good players. Any of the olds or Reynolds 3 or 4 valve horns are good too.

The 3/4 Conn CC tubas are great too (2J, 3J). Very easy to play.

From my brief experience (3wk) with the (compensated) Wessex "Bombino", that may fit your needs...it is small but can produce a good volume of sound. About 10 years ago I had a Yamaha 321 which I recall also needed little slide pulling.

Besson 983......period.

Roger

Conn 10J is a great 3/4 with sound bigger that the horn. It looks like an overgrown euphonium. Olds 99 or its Bach or Reynolds identical twins are good also. BIG sound for their size.

DonShirer wrote: About 10 years ago I had a Yamaha 321 which I recall also needed little slide pulling.

Full disclosure: The Yamaha 321S was my first tuba -- acquired used from Vince at Tuba Exchange in the early 90s. It's a good horn, but ...

Only a certain segment of the American market seems to go for it. It is a PAIN to play once you reach a certain level. Four inline upright valves are painful under the best of circumstances, and the valve set of the 321 is especially painful because of how the 4th valve is situated. Slide pulling? Mine had a main tuning slide trigger retro-fit to it, and this helped with the intonation -- but didn't make it more pleasant to play.

The 321 has a place in my heart, but I don't think I'd wish it on anyone without some significant modifications. (Check out Dan Schultz's site for his project where he made one into a front-action 5-valve horn.) There are several better/cheaper alternatives available today, including some of the new offerings from Wessex that I would be very tempted by except that I have become a total 3+1 convert.

edsel585960 wrote:Conn 10J is a great 3/4 with sound bigger that the horn. It looks like an overgrown euphonium. Olds 99 or its Bach or Reynolds identical twins are good also. BIG sound for their size.

Conn 10J. Yes.

Note that numbers aren't unique in Yamaha's notation - there's a BBb YBB 321, and an Eb YEB 321 (Bb euphonium YEP 321, etc.) Which happen to be the same design with four top valves and so forth. The Eb used to be rather well thought of, it seemed to me anyway, and if it has been the cause of suffering as described above, I think this is the first time I've heard about it. The BBb is apparently more of an acquired taste.

Compensating Eb sounds likea really good alternative! I already played on a old besson, but intonation was difficult on this one. Might have been this particular horn since other tuba players also complained about it.

Compensating Eb would also allow me to play in all the brass bands here about! And it is what most people seem to play. What is the industry standard out there?

But I am still intrigued by BBb. Can I expect to find a BBb in the size of a compensating Eb? Would that offer more versability?

Donn wrote:The Eb used to be rather well thought of, it seemed to me anyway, and if it has been the cause of suffering as described above, I think this is the first time I've heard about it.

People with pretty large hands have a much easier time with it. The valves are just stretched out a bit, and pretty much straight inline rather than having a better ergonomic curve. A response that some people have taken is to play the 4th valve with the index finger of the left hand -- in the manner of a compensating horn. I loved the sound of it and the response.

ghmerrill wrote:People with pretty large hands have a much easier time with it. The valves are just stretched out a bit, and pretty much straight inline rather than having a better ergonomic curve.

I suppose playing position probably makes a difference, too. The YEB321 player I see fairly regularly in person plays standing up, and holds it more sideways than upright, maybe about 40° from sideways. I suppose he's around 5'6''.

I believe that YBB103 is not just in the same size class as a Eb tubas, it's significantly smaller than the Besson 981 etc. Those things are ... well, length is a mystery, but looks like 40 inches to me, and over 20 lbs, vs YBB103 at 34 inches, 12 lbs - and with valves on the front, which is much more manageable if you ever play standing.

And the list price on a 983 is over $19,000 with the discounted price of a new one being over $11,000. There is (was?) one on Tubnet used for $5,800 -- which would seem to be a good price. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66786

The new Wessex Gnagey 5-valve non-comp Eb is a tad less than $4,000 in silver plate. And their compensating Eb horns (19" or 16.5" bell) are in the $3,000-ish range (or a bit less for lacquer).

It would be interesting to see some head-to-head comparisons of all these horns by a competent and objective player with no axe to grind one way or the other.