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I am having a particularly difficult time with this simple passage.

It improved with some larger bore piston tubas I tried recently.

See the seventh bar fallowing the circle B before the repeat.

On a BBb; the first valve C followed immediately by the the 1,2 combo or 3 only G then back and repeat.



It gets worse as the tempo increases.

I generally don't have trouble finding the notes "between the F's" but this combo just kicks my ***!!

Is it common to find difficult combinations like this despite the talent of the player or the capabilities of the horn??

I couldn't possibly just need more practice, could I??

If it's you/mouthpiece/horn combination, try 1-3-1-3-1 and see if that helps.
I like my to keep my third slide out just a touch, anyway...

A random thought - the fast interval is from the G back up to the C, and if the second valve is sluggish, it's going to be in the way.

Otherwise, I suppose you have encountered this interval plenty of times and haven't otherwise noticed any trouble, so evidently it's this particular sequence, including the rests, at this tempo. So while I hesitate to recommend any practice, if you insist on practicing, other patterns with the same interval might give you a clue where exactly the hitch is here.

Every time I have had an issue like this, it has come down to my lips arguing with the horn - the horn wants to slot the note a little differently than I do. On my current horn, it was the top line Ab. The horn wanted to play it 30 cents sharp; I didn't. Once I figured that out and manipulated the plumbing accordingly, it started to slot no problem.

Might be worth some time with a tuner to see where the happy spot is on both the C and G and if the initial attack is off from where the note eventually slots and then work from there.

Thanks, it's somewhat assuring to think that my problem isn't THAT unusual among players and students.

I'll have something to work on tonight when I get home.

Else, I will simply have to insist the arrangement be scored in a different key!!

Three Valves wrote:Else, I will simply have to insist the arrangement be scored in a different key!!

... that part sits REAL easy on a CC tuba!

Unfortunately, scales and arpeggios are boring to practice on a daily basis. Fortunately (for me), I find that they solve exactly these kinds of problems.

Several things: Many times we practice things over and over and there is never any improvement ... the problem remains. In many cases our instincts regarding what we think we should do lead us to the wrong approach. (for instance when we think loud, we often tighten up the muscles, tongue real heavy and then they bog down, the throat closes and we lose the breath support) The opposite would be to stay relaxed, keep things nice and open so the big air supply can do its work, and allow the muscles to move smoothly without having to break through the tension)

Okay problem that you mentioned:
1. This interval (C - G - C) might be at the break where you are changing from a downstream to an upstream embouchure. That is a relatively elusive issue, as it is hard to see what is going on without a clear mouthpiece. Ideally, it would be helpful not to switch and to keep blowing the same way for both pitches. In my experience, it seems as though most people sport a down stream, which is natural for someone with an overbite. The tendency is to foul all this up by creating a bulldog embouchure when trying for a lower pitch. It is a tricky thing and often problems develop.

2. Along with the 'upstream/downstream' issue is the matching of the upper and lower lips. Ask yourself if you can actually feel the position of you lower lip coming to meet the upper. If they both produce the identical pitch, you will have a very strong and focused sound. The lower lip tends to get neglected. When you have split tones or a double buzz, this lack of syncronization is usually the culprit. Work on getting them to buzz the same pitch dead on.

3. There are several levels/layers of tissues that form the embouchure. The most outward is what essentially vibrates and which you try to control to get the various pitches. All works optimally when the mouthpiece rim sits lightly on the lip and really doesn't press all the way down to the teeth. This allows you to rapidly and smoothly change the buzz and pitch. When the mouthpiece presses deeper, it goes into some serious muscle tissue, and, as such interfers with attempts to move quickly from one pitch to another. A simple lip slur exercise can be used to isolate this muscle movement and demonstrate to oneself what is going on.

4. The corners of the emboucher could stand to be firm, not vice grip tight, just firm. Inside the firm embouchure the lower jaw and lip needs to adjust slightly for each pitch along with the lip tension. The tongue placement also needs to be consistent from one note to the next with regard to being placed squarely and with reasonalble compression on the palette. The tongue needs to release at the head of the note. Check to see if it is. If the tongue is thrown to the teeth on the beat, the sound can not emminate at the proper time and there will be a distortion at the head of the note. The tongue needs to pull away on the beat.

One of the problems is that the strength it takes in the embouchure to sustain that lip position has its limits before momentary muscle failure sets in. For some, 15 or 20 seconds, without taking the mp of the chops, can bring the muscles to the point of fatigue. The more exercising on strengthening technics like long tones and lip slurs will help build the chops. In this case frequently resting is important for recovery. If the chops are in fatigue, nothing is really getting developed stamina wise. Blood flow has been diminished and much of what is happening is being done by force.

In the example you mentioned with the descending 4th, it would be helpful not to move the mouthpiece set on the chops between the notes, not even a little. Get used to thrusting the jaw out a bit for the lower note and back in for the upper (this should be very subtled), do not hesitate on the air support, tongue fearlessly and almost mechanically. If you buzz the right pitch and keep it focused, release the tongue at the right time, keep the corners firm and maintain a continuous wind supply, the note has to come out correctly. If it doesn't one of those things is not being executed properly.

Often times, bad habits get developed because the buzz is not refined. You might feel it sputter, or not begin smoothly or sustain very well. Part of the problem is not that the buzz is not correctly focused on the pitch, but getting there from a large interval is like trying to shoot at the bullseye from a galoping horse. Interval practice with a tuner is helpful. This is when players begin to do little "cheating" tricks like over tonguing or between the teeth, lip stretching or extreme pressure, unusual pivot movements etc. When things are not disciplined, one issues leads to another and then serious remedial work is required.
But hey! How many of us are perfect players. Even those who we think are, will tell you otherwise. So don't get discouraged.

Its amazing but so much of those kind of 'chip note problems' come from that part of the embouchure, right in the middle where the upper and lower lips meet. That part of the chops really needs to stay disciplined almost like a soldier at attention on guard duty.
It is rarely diagnosed in lessons so rather simple remedial help never gets applied.

Good luck. Oh! and after you figure all this out, Yup... forget it and just play like a virtuoso.

Paul (who loves to dissect problems, analyse and then try to fix everything so he can forget it all and just play) Maybery

I just now ran through this one. Two observations:

- I tried it on two tubas, one where C is very flat, and one where it's pretty well in tune, where this passage is as easy as it could be. On the flat C tuba, though, the C came through flat, of course, but the surprising thing was that the G tended to suffer. I wasn't nailing it, I guess because I exert quite a bit of effort to push the pitch on the C, while the G calls for a more relaxed effort and it's hard to quickly get back to that.

- I don't normally play it. We have a John Church edition, "Basses" is two part divisi, you could reasonably say bass and contrabass tuba parts. You have the bass part; I play the contrabass part, where the C in that passage is an octave lower (but the G is the same.)
If I remember right, John Church editions of Sousa marches come from around 1900.

Do lots of lip slurs; especially on "problem intervals". Then work on smoothing them out. Keep your airstream constant.
Trust me; lip slurs will help tremendously build embouchure strength and help clean up your note attacks.

windshieldbug wrote:If it's you/mouthpiece/horn combination, try 1-3-1-3-1 and see if that helps.
I like my to keep my third slide out just a touch, anyway...

The 1,3 C and the 3 G helped.

I don't need alternate fingerings for these notes anywhere else but here, for these two notes, at tempo.

Still strange...

PaulMaybery wrote:Several things: Many times we practice things over and over and there is never any improvement ... the problem remains. In many cases our instincts regarding what we think we should do lead us to the wrong approach. (for instance when we think loud, we often tighten up the muscles, tongue real heavy and then they bog down, the throat closes and we lose the breath support) The opposite would be to stay relaxed, keep things nice and open so the big air supply can do its work, and allow the muscles to move smoothly without having to break through the tension)

Okay problem that you mentioned:
1. This interval (C - G - C) might be at the break where you are changing from a downstream to an upstream embouchure.

This made sense so I checked it. I have crowded lower teeth w/overbite but my embouchure is still consistently downstream throughout my range (such as it is)

However, I was over blowing the passage and may have to settle for more mezzo than forte!!

Three Valves wrote:I was over blowing the passage and may have to settle for more mezzo than forte!!

Often the root of these types of issues I've found

bloke wrote:It is possible that the C on your tuba is flatter than where you are hearing it (i.e. where it actually belongs, as I trust your ear more than I trust your tuba), and that your buzz and your tuba's desire to play the C flatter don't get along particularly well?

I know that's where my problem is with that passage, on a tuba that's like that. Though as I mentioned, it actually shows up more on the G - I think the transition from normal to "lip up" is easier than the reverse.

So, as has been described in this thread, this is an issue with two possible problems and solutions. The first issue is to make sure you are putting the correct pitch into the cup of the mouthpiece. The instrument cannot resonate the correct pitch if you are not buzzing each note on center. Buzz the passage in question on the mouthpiece alone to make sure you are buzzing the notes on the center of the pitch.

Once you are highly confident that you are doing that, if the notes still do not slot properly, then you will likely need to adjust the slides for the different valve combinations to make sure the tuba is set to the correct length to resonate the pitch you are buzzing in the mouthpiece.

Be aware that you should be able to play each note in tune (pretty darn close anyway) regardless of where the tuning slides are placed. However, if the slides are not set to the optimal length, you will get a significant reduction in resonance and tone quality.

When I find this to be an issue in my own playing, I invariably find that I am not buzzing the correct pitch into the mouthpiece, but instead, and only buzzing an often not so close approximation of the pitch. Almost always I find that once I am able to buzz the passage on the mouthpiece alone, it sounds much better on the tuba.

I have one last thought, since something similar occurs in my own playing. I let the mouthpiece move around as I play. I tend to move toward the bottom of the cup (in effect shortening the embouchure) as I play higher. I tend to play closer to the equator of the cup as I move into the lower register. When I play on the mouthpiece alone, this happens quite naturally, but sometimes on the tuba, if my embouchure shifts for the high notes, it does not want to shift back toward the equator as I move from higher notes to lower notes. This lack of a returning shift results in a much less resonant sound as I descend due to the shorter embouchure providing the vibration for notes that want a longer embouchure and more tissue providing the buzz.

This is somewhat similar to what Paul was discussing in terms of the upstream/downstream break. It results in a break of different sorts for me, and seems to occur between first line G and the Eb below the staff. I personally find that I need a lot of mouthpiece practice in that range to make the transition seamless (or as close to seamless as I can muster).

So, play the passage on the mouthpiece and then immediately on the tuba. You might also want to get a BERP, so that you can actually hold and finger the tuba while buzzing the mouthpiece. Holding the tuba and changing the fingerings provide a strong psychological link between the brain and the lip.

my two cents (what it's worth).

Can you buzz the 2 notes cleanly and in tune?

You may find that you are buzzing them out of tune and thus increasing the likelihood you will miss the notes.

If you can buzz them cleanly and in tune, try on the horn with tuner and see if they are in tune on the horn. A flat note on the horn or a stuffy note and you might have some resistance on the 1-2 combo that you are blowing right past.

good luck

Luke

Donn wrote:I just now ran through this one. Two observations:

- I don't normally play it. We have a John Church edition, "Basses" is two part divisi, you could reasonably say bass and contrabass tuba parts. You have the bass part; I play the contrabass part, where the C in that passage is an octave lower (but the G is the same.)
If I remember right, John Church editions of Sousa marches come from around 1900.

I may be wrong [Paul?], but the usual divisi you mention is actually for string bass/tuba. Still, many bands do split the part among the tuba section, as most do not have a string bass to double. I'm just not sure that is what souse had in mind. Paul Maybery would be the one to clarify that.

Hi Scott.
Thanks for the referral on the Sousa item. I'm VERY familiar with Sousa's works in detail. I've edited many of the charts that Keith Brion is recording for NAXOS in the 20 CD set of the Complete Works of Sousa.

As much as Sousa is worshipped in the band world, the details of his marches leave MUCH to be desired. VERY VERY inconsitent use of articulations and dynamics, and what is worse is that the publishers engraved exactly what he wrote or did not write exactly as on the ms page. Since his band usually rehearsed for about 6 weeks prior to a tour, many of the vagaries and ambiguities in his music got worked out in rehearsal. Don't ever underestimate the level of his musicians.

The tuba parts were often only a starting point for what would happen in performance. Bill Bell relayed much of what happened. Octaves were often added for depth. In slurred passages, at least one player would tongue the notes. On those diminished 7th chords toward the end of a strain. One player would go up an octave, another would go down. Sort of adding EQ to the chord. Those guys were quite smart at knowing how to make things sound extraordinary. We also know that Sousa took great liberties with the orchestration of his own marches. Frank Simon can be quoted: "It is the exception rather than the rule that the Sousa band ever played one of his marches as it was printed." Octaves were one of the most frequent features that were altered. Melodic lines were often lowered from the 2nd and 3rd octaves to in the staff or even lower. Bass lines were often doubled in octaves here and there. While Bell has mentioned this, there is no evidence to support it in the actual music. Pretty much all the parts in the Sousa library are unmarked in that regard. I looked for clues, but found none. Remember this about Sousa's tuba section: After he left the Marine Band in 1892 he employed only BBb tubas/sousaphones. Usually 2 of the Jumbo 6/4 or larger sized 7/4, and the others at 5/4. That was a serious bass section. No E flat tubas. So those octave lines in the piece you mentioned were what he wrote in the original manuscript and what he expected from his rather large concert band. They would have been child's play for players such as Jack Richardson, Herman Conrad, Gus Helleberg and Bill Bell. When you listen to early recordings of what is labeled the Sousa Band you hear usually only one player and the band is probably about 20 players all crammed into the RCA studio in Camden, NJ. Of the nearly 1000 recording that the band made, Sousa is only conducting on about 6 of them.'
And in many cases, the band was made up of players from the Philadelphia orchestra which was just a ferry ride across the Delaware River from Camden. Players such as Saul Caston on Cornet, Anton Horner on Horn, Charles Gusikoff on trombone filled the ranks.
The contract books still exist. The point being is that there was great irregularity in performances of his own music. Members of the band recall that from year to year and tour to tour, the same piece would be performed entirely different from one to the other. This is not to say there was not a "Sousa Style" but it was rarely found on the printed page. How does one learn what Sousa would possibly have done. More realistically one should learn what he would have never done but there are techniques that were passed down orally from his band members to younger players and we have bits and pieces of that today.

scottw wrote: I may be wrong [Paul?], but the usual divisi you mention is actually for string bass/tuba. Still, many bands do split the part among the tuba section, as most do not have a string bass to double. I'm just not sure that is what souse had in mind. Paul Maybery would be the one to clarify that.

I am positive Basses is for tubas only. In this case it's an easy call, because this edition happens to have a separate String Bass part. I wouldn't bet Sousa wrote the String Bass part - it looks like nothing but a transposition of the lower tuba part (string bass plays 8vb), which is what a back room copyist would do.

More generally, these two parts tend to match up very well with contrabass and bass tuba. Low end is G -- both 3V BBb tuba and string bass go to E, but the string bass is much more convincing down there. And again, if John Philip Sousa ever did write a real string bass part, I bet a quarter it doesn't just double the tuba part (especially if he were writing for published version to be used by a wide range of bands, because a part like that isn't just musically questionable, it's hard.)

As for what Sousa had his own band doing - I'm sure Paul has as much of the story as anyone. But Sousa didn't get The John Church Company to print up an arrangement of Liberty Bell so he could pass it out to his band, and he probably didn't have them print up the arrangement they played. All these arrangements are for standard band configuration of the time, so certainly would need to account for an Eb tuba, and in this case the arrangement shows more signs of some musical intelligence at work - I mean, the line is always divided if it goes below A, but above that, a C for example may be doubled in some places, not in others, for what I suppose are musical reasons that wouldn't have motivated a copyist. So whether Sousa had an Eb tuba in mind at some point in the process of getting this arrangement to the publisher, anyway it's a real part that does serve that purpose pretty well.

luke_hollis wrote:my two cents (what it's worth).

Can you buzz the 2 notes cleanly and in tune?

You may find that you are buzzing them out of tune and thus increasing the likelihood you will miss the notes.

If you can buzz them cleanly and in tune, try on the horn with tuner and see if they are in tune on the horn. A flat note on the horn or a stuffy note and you might have some resistance on the 1-2 combo that you are blowing right past.

good luck

Luke

That's what is so frustrating.

Though it is diminishing, the C and G issue ONLY reared it's head when played in rapid succession in the two bars given in the opening example. Elsewhere there is no problem finding the notes.

PaulMaybery wrote:

As much as Sousa is worshipped in the band world, the details of his marches leave MUCH to be desired.

Donn wrote:
As for what Sousa had his own band doing - I'm sure Paul has as much of the story as anyone. But Sousa didn't get The John Church Company to print up an arrangement of Liberty Bell so he could pass it out to his band, and he probably didn't have them print up the arrangement they played.

Fascinating stuff.

I recall hearing about a Sousa fest in Cape May, NJ, and one will be in DC this year.

Have either of you been to or can you recommend such an event??