questions about Jinbao Miraclone CC 410

[fkin]

hi, Forum,

i want to buy a CC tuba for a long time. i am very interested in the Jinbao miraclone 410 CC 5 valves.
i played a Jinbao 200 BBb tuba , and love it, and thought that it plays great at home, but once i took it to a band rehearsal, when playing it next to 3 yamaha 321 BBb, my jinbao tuba sounds muffled. so i am very hesitating to bought the other 410 CC 5 valves. i have a few questions:

1.do any Jinbao (or wessex or mackbrass) tuba player found that their tuba sounds stuffy when playing together with other non-Chinese brand tubas?
2. do you think the wessex or mackbrass will sound better than my Jinbao 200 BBb?
3.i heard from a euphonium player (from China) that Jinbao's instruments improves a lot in the past few years, in terms of build and sound quality. so do you Jinbao players found that their sound improves in the past few years? my Jinbao 200 BBb was built in 2010. will you go ahead and just buy the 410 CC if you were me?
4. are you sure that the Miraclone mentioned plays perfectly in tune?
4.do you think delaquering my Jinbao 200 BBb will improve its sound?

thx for any suggestions!!

Fkin

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Read reviews of the Miraclone on this Forum. Very nice tuba, cheap price, has gotten even better, a 'best buy,'etc.......

[Worth]

are you sure that the Miraclone mentioned plays perfectly in tune?

A great horn for the price although I'd swap it for a 188 if I had the extra dough!

[Michael Bush]

Have you asked a tech to look at the tuba you have? Other things being equal I personally would choose to play your model tuba over your section mates' every time. It could be your problem is fixable by another method than buying a new tuba.

Another thought: do other people, the band director for example, think your tuba sounds muffled? The room is likely much bigger than the one at home, your tuba is tall, those Yamaha bells are (possibly?) in your ears, while your own bell is pretty far above your head. What does it sound like to people who are not under the bell with other tubas roaring in their ears? Also the Yamaha bells point the other way. Are you pointed toward them or away from them?

[fkin]

thx for all the comments,

Michael: thx for the suggestions! you 've really pointed out something that i never even thought of!
i ve tried a jinbao bass trombone in the same wind band, its a special ordered black lacquered double valves bass trombone. i think it plays great when playing at home, open rotors, good slide action, but it sounds muffled when compare to other name brand instruments, both my section mate and i noticed that. i suspect that the black lacquer is too thick and it muffled the sound. i sold the black trombone to another forumite in Singapore, he strip off the black lacquer and he said it plays fine. so i am thinking of stripping lacquer off my jinbao 200 BBb tuba to see what happen.

and yes i ve never think of the fact that the direction of the bell pointed could affect the sound. to be exact,i found my sound muffled when I play on the left, 1 meinl weston in the middle ( bell pointed to the left, same as mine) and 2 yamaha 321s on the right side(bell pointed to the right hand side, as opposite to me and the meinl weston guy). my section mates told me that they found my sound muffled. i really dont know what the conductor thought about my sound. i might want to ask him later.

[thevillagetuba]

1.do any Jinbao (or wessex or mackbrass) tuba player found that their tuba sounds stuffy when playing together with other non-Chinese brand tubas?
2. do you think the wessex or mackbrass will sound better than my Jinbao 200 BBb?
3.i heard from a euphonium player (from China) that Jinbao's instruments improves a lot in the past few years, in terms of build and sound quality. so do you Jinbao players found that their sound improves in the past few years? my Jinbao 200 BBb was built in 2010. will you go ahead and just buy the 410 CC if you were me?
4. are you sure that the Miraclone mentioned plays perfectly in tune?
4.do you think delaquering my Jinbao 200 BBb will improve its sound?

I'm going to answer these in order the best to my ability as I have played numerous 410s and have played with numerous colleagues in various groups with one.

1. I have never felt that I have had any trouble being heard or projecting with these horns. The people that have played these with me cut just as nicely as my more expensive german instruments.
2. No way to know as I haven't played your horn. I do like the 410 more than the 200.
3. Jinbao has been consistantly improving their horns and they are much better today than even 5 years ago. If I were looking for a cheap C and didn't want to spend much, I would definitely look to the 410 (from Mack or Wessex) given that I couldn't find a 188 for sale anywhere for cheap (you probahly won't find one in decent shape near the price of a new 410).
4. No tuba plays perfectly in tune. Period. If you are referring to lining up in tune with a tuner, then this one does a darn good job, but you will still need to make adjustments depending on the key and your role in the chord. This horn does not play perfectly in tune (again none will in every situation) but it is by no means a difficult horn, one of the easiest "cheaper" horns out there.
4 (5). Delaquering might help. It might not. You won't know until you do it.

My recommendation would be to try some other mouthpieces in the horn and see what you think. I have found that most of these Jinbao horns come with crap pieces that don't help the player at all. I don't know what you use, but maybe a Conn Helleberg or some other funnel-shaped mouthpiece might be a cost-effective solution as opposed to buying a new tuba.

[fkin]

thx villagetuba!

i agreed that the mouthpiece is very important. i ve tried a kellyberg (plastic) and the helleberg 120S.
i tried that kelly first and thought that i might be the plastic mouthpiece make the tuba sounds muffled, but i tried the really helleberg 120s and found that there are no difference. still muffled sound. i dont know why. or would you recommend me some other mouthpiece to try??

and i just ask the band director last night. and sadly, he feel the same way as i think. he found my sound muffled , and not project as good as the yamaha 321s. but he said its still acceptable, if i am the only tuba in the band no one would noticed the problem. but i really want a tuba that blends in most situation.

Kin

[Dan Tuba]

I owned a Mack Brass 200S for a while and I found that it projected very well with the following mouthpieces:
1)GW Alan Baer
2)Sidey SSH Original
3)Kelly 18

I really liked this tuba and thought that it played very well. I really love playing the 981 clones so I decided to sell it to buy one. I play the Yamaha 321 every week at my local corps in the Salvation Army. I find that the 321 has a "rounder" sound than the Mack 200S but that is by design. This can be perceived by others as more volume or projection.Especially in a band room or rehearsal space with low ceilings .However, from my experience the Mack can "cut" and project much better in a large hall and outdoors.

[fkin]

thx for all the suggestions! highly appreciated!!
Russiantuba i did try swapping the 321s with my other sectionmate, i think they sound as muffled as i did on my JBBB 200 !!!! but i didnt record it. i may try next time.

i ve mentioned my jinbao bass trombone that sold to a forumite from Singapore in previous posts. He told me that after de-lacquering the jinbao bass the sound open up a lot!!! and the original black lacquer (its a custom order Jinbao!!!) is too thick. but he said even after that it sound a little too mellow for menacing passages.

i think i will try to delacquer my Jinbao JBBB 200 and see how it plays. if no more muffle sound i will buy the JBBB 410.

thx again for all the precious comments and suggestions! and my apologies for my funny english!!!
Happy tuba playing to you all !!!!!

Kin

[balchb]

I have had my Wessex 186 CC clone for about a year and a half.

1. Sound is great with a PT-48 (not Helleberg).
2. Upper register is superior. Gorgeous, easy, wow, reason I bought it.
3. Low register is not quite as powerful as I would prefer, bit gets the job done.
4. Valves needed work, now it is great.
5. My horn is not stuffy or muffled at all. It might be mouthpiece (again, I didn't care for my Helleberg with this instrument).
6. I do need to pull middle and high F and push in for 3rd line D. E is better 3rd valve vs 12. Db is sharp, sometimes 523 makes more sense.
7. My low C is somewhat flat. The PT-48 helped a little, but I still need to help it up a bit.
8. Articulation is crisp and it slurs smooth.

Overall, incredible for the money. Not a 10k horn, but plays better than something in the 6-8k range.

[MackBrass]

thx for all the suggestions! highly appreciated!!
Russiantuba i did try swapping the 321s with my other sectionmate, i think they sound as muffled as i did on my JBBB 200 !!!! but i didnt record it. i may try next time.

i ve mentioned my jinbao bass trombone that sold to a forumite from Singapore in previous posts. He told me that after de-lacquering the jinbao bass the sound open up a lot!!! and the original black lacquer (its a custom order Jinbao!!!) is too thick. but he said even after that it sound a little too mellow for menacing passages.

i think i will try to delacquer my Jinbao JBBB 200 and see how it plays. if no more muffle sound i will buy the JBBB 410.

thx again for all the precious comments and suggestions! and my apologies for my funny english!!!
Happy tuba playing to you all !!!!!

Kin

Taking the lacquer off will do nothing in making the horn sound better. The lacquer, and silver for that matter is just a finish and really doesnt impact the sound or playability of an instrument. The first thing I would check are the hash marks on your back caps to see if the valves are aligned properly. The 200 model is a pretty open and easy horn to play and if your having issues check the valve alignment.

Another easy way to check is by removing the 2nd valve tuning slide and look at the valve inside the casing in both the open and closed position. Even if its off by a little the chances are that all 4 are off. When 1 valve is off by even 1/8th of an inch, multiply that times 4 and certainly this will have a big impact.

[Michael Bush]

As much as I hate to bump this thread about an issue that is no doubt already resolved, I did anyway.

I pulled out my B&S (Karl Ziess stenciled) tuba that is very similar to the Jinbao 200, and on which I have not played a note in a year until today. (There's a thread about this tuba around here somewhere.) The sound I got out of it reminded me of this thread. And I find it has, from where I sit under the bell, the kind of sound OP was describing. Tomorrow I'm going to try recording it and see what I learn.

[Three Valves]

This guy I went to school with simply could not produce good tone.

He was a technical master and had all the range and scales he needed to get past an audition.

I just couldn't bear listening to the sound he made.



Great guitar player though...

[Davidus1]

I own the 200 model and find that it projects just fine. I play in a section that has players playing on Yamahas and other models. If the horn is stuffy then you should have it checked out to see if there is an obstruction or something else going on. These are very free blowing horns and I really like this horn. I've played on Miraphones previously for over 25 years and this horn does as well except that the valves are not as smooth as Miraphone valves. I also didn't drop 10K in the horn. I'm very satisfied with this instrument and its sound. I hope you are able to resolve your issue. I agree with Tom.......stripping the laquer will not impact your overall sound.

[Michael Bush]

And I find it has, from where I sit under the bell, the kind of sound OP was describing. Tomorrow I'm going to try recording it and see what I learn.

As I suspected, at least with me and my tuba (again, very similar to OP's), the muffled sound is about the acoustics of the room. In the small room in my house where I practice, where the bell is closer to the ceiling and further from my ears than any tuba I've played (these are TALL instruments) it sounds muffled or covered to me as I play it. In an auditorium, not at all, neither to me nor to a digital recorder out in the seats.

[Wyvern]

Tubas do need space for the tone to develop. You need at least 4 yards (I think that is the distance, but stand to be corrected) of space above the bell for the vibrations to develop and the tuba to sound its best - Which of course presents problems play testing in confined space.

[Dan Schultz]

Tubas do need space for the tone to develop. You need at least 4 yards (I think that is the distance, but stand to be corrected) of space above the bell for the vibrations to develop and the tuba to sound its best - Which of course presents problems play testing in confined space.

4 yards (12 feet) would be the approximate distance beyond the bell for an F tuba.

The full wave length of a BBb tuba is approximately TWICE the length of the open bugle or about 36 feet. The length of a BBb open bugle is about 18 feet. A CC is about 16 feet. A Eb is about 13 1/2 feet and a F is about 12 feet.

Half the wave is inside the horn and half the wave is reflected beyond the bell.

[The Big Ben]

The Elephant purchased one of the 410s a year ago and wrote a review recently. It's detailed and might be worth a read if you haven't done so already.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70738" target="_blank

[mannyBD]

I've had my jinbao 410 cc from tempest for a month and I use a Yamaha roger bobo solo replica mouthpiece and it works great! hopefully it is any bit of useful information for you. And good luck

[Lamminator]

I had a Wessex 186 clone as well. Really nice Instrument and easy to make a good sound. Just didn't play it enough so it went.